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Termageddon's Aussie Launch
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Does everybody need a privacy policy? So does a window cleaner need a privacy policy?
SPEAKER_04So it yeah, so you need a privacy policy if your website is collecting personal information.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04So if your website is collecting names, emails, phone numbers, addresses, or IP addresses, or really any information that could identify somebody, then you need to have a privacy policy.
SPEAKER_01If you have a vision for the agency you want to build, then we want to help you build it. Welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast, brought to you by Agency Mavericks.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Agency Hour. This is episode 437 in the Digital Mavericks Facebook group. Hey, uh, today we have a very special guest. We're supposed to have three, actually, but there's only one in the green room. One, Christina Hawkins, just has not turned up. And I think it's because daylight savings has bitten her in the arse, and she probably thinks it's in an hour's time. And true story, our actual guest this week thought the same thing and just kind of ran in at the last minute and went, oh my God, with the sweat dripping off his brow. Oh my god, I'm so sorry I'm running late. I thought this was in an hour's time. And uh, oh, there we go. Marcel Allen figured it out and has given StreamEard permission for us to know who she is. Yay, Marcel. Welcome to the show. Of course, for those of you listening to this as a podcast and not watching in the Facebook group, this will be incredibly boring for you because you won't know what we're talking about. If you do happen to be listening to this at some point in the future and you're not watching the interaction, you should join the Digital Mavericks Facebook group. Just go to Facebook.com, search for Digital Mavericks, and join the group, and then you can watch the video here and see what all the fun is about. So today, our very special guest on the agency hour is a gentleman I met while I was out in the United Kingdom at an event run by Lee Jackson called, I think it was called Agency Transformation Live. I was one of the speakers out there, as was this gentleman. And I ran into this gentleman uh who uh cornered me at the back of the room and said, Oi, you come here, I want to have a chat with you, and we got chatting. And he'd flown out from the States uh to this event, and he has become very well known in our circles over the last, I don't know, maybe a couple of years that that he's been here. And uh he also then came out to our vet in Santa Monica, sponsored one of our vents in Santa Monica, and we've had a great friendship and a great relationship over the last couple of years. Of course, I am talking about the one and only Hans Skilrod from Termageddon. Come on down. Hey, dude, did I say your name right? You did, and that's a heck of an introduction. Well, dude, I have to say, you know, uh your energy at agency transformation at in the UK was blazing. You lit the room up, dude, with uh how passionate you were and how grateful you were to be at that event. I remember you standing up and saying something like, I wish this event existed when I had an agency. Look around. This is an amazing network you guys have got. You're sitting on a gold mine, make the most of it. By the way, I've just I've I just I found out about this event like two days ago, got on a plane from Chicago, and here I am. So, for those that have been living under a rock for the last couple of years, tell people who you are and how you got to where you are now. Yeah, and and why you're in the TARDIS. It looks like you're actually in the TARDIS.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, this is this is what powers Termageddon. So, you know, uh I always got to be in front of it, protecting it at all times. But um, but yeah, my name is Hans. I'm one of the co-founders of Termageddon. Uh, Termageddon is an auto-updating website policy solution. Uh, we offer privacy policies, terms of service, and all those other boring things that you probably have to deal with when building websites for clients. Um uh we primarily work with uh web designers. Uh, we have like a reseller program and an affiliate program, and really we just built Termageddon to, well, one, be comprehensive, which is what my wife does. Um, she's the privacy attorney and expert behind all that stuff. But two, really just helping web agencies better communicate, you know, when clients need to have policies on their website. And um, yeah, we we have a reseller and affiliate program that helps them out with that. So, you know, Troy brings up this moment when we first met at Agency Transformation Live, and you know what that was two years and like four months ago. And the reason why I can recall that so quickly is because that is one month after I sold my 12-person web agency. So I ran a 12-person web agency for seven years. I absolutely loved it. Um, I just happened to be marrying a privacy attorney, so we we launched Termageddon, but I had just sold my agency, and now my target market were web agencies, and here I was speaking to a community that you know we had so many similarities and so many great ways to learn from one another. It was it was really my entry into my new business, and in a lot of ways, I look at it as like a symbolic moment in my life. Um, and I just I felt like I found my people, so yeah, it was absolutely great meeting you, Troy. And um, and I love sponsoring your event. And please call me whenever we can sponsor. I'm I'm always I'm always ready, always ready.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Uh, so there's a bit to unpack there, but I just want to go back a little a bit. I've never heard anyone describe their wife as comprehensive before. Here's my wife, she's comprehensive. Um comprehensive in all in all aspects of life. Now, she is a privacy attorney, so you know, the the terms and conditions, the terms of service, the privacy policy, the cookie policy. Do you guys do cookie policies? So here's my question. How do you turn how do you build a business out of something that is perceived as a boring, pain in the ass, must-have?
SPEAKER_03Oh, speak of the devil, here comes my comprehensive life.
SPEAKER_05All right, I am so sorry.
SPEAKER_00Right on cube, Donata. Hi. Welcome to the show, welcome to agency. Our Hans was just saying he just described you as comprehensive. He said, uh, I I married a privacy attorney, uh, I sold the agency, uh, married a privacy attorney, and uh what we help agencies do now is is is you know, terms and conditions and policies and those sorts of agreements, but really comprehensively, because that is my wife. So he he did describe you as comprehensive, and I'm just trying to unpack that a little bit and see if that's uh true in other aspects of very interesting way to describe your wife, I guess.
SPEAKER_04So comprehensive.
SPEAKER_00Well, when I first met my wife when we first started dating, I said to her, you know, one thing I really like about you is you're reliable. And she she was like, Oh my god, how boring I'm reliable. And I I meant what I meant was that she was she was consistent in her behavior, like you knew what you were gonna get, which was something that really appealed to me. Um, maybe because I'd been with some sociopaths in the past that I enjoyed the predictability of someone who actually said and did what they said they were gonna do. Oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_03Shout out to a T2.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh so really interesting and very quick story. I'm sure we'll get back to the things that the people are here for.
SPEAKER_00Of course. We don't need to. We can just talk about life and philosophy if you like.
SPEAKER_04I'd think that'd be well, real quick, last year, about a week before our wedding, uh, we were having this nice romantic dinner, champagne, you know, like just a whole nine yards at home. And he looks over and he says, You look so beautiful tonight. And I look over and he's talking to our dog. So the romance is very much alive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'm never gonna hear the end of that one. I'm in trouble. I'm in the doghouse with the beautiful dog.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna bring up, I'll gotta bring up the candle after. That is hilarious. Um, hey, ladies and gentlemen, joining us all the way from Sugarland, Texas, a little bit late, and I'm gonna grill her and throw her under a bus and get her to explain why. Christina Hawker, talking.
SPEAKER_02Sorry about that. That was uh little time zone issue there going on. So I told you it was daylight savings.
SPEAKER_00I said daylight savings are just bitten you in the ass. Daylight savings happened for us a couple of weeks ago, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was having a Mavericks call. I was talking with some flight planning with a Mavericks.
SPEAKER_00So there we go. There we go.
SPEAKER_02You know, excellent.
SPEAKER_00All right. Um, so uh Donata, before you um and Christina, before you guys gate crashed, this very private, intimate conversation that Hans and I were enjoying, uh, I said to Hans, how do you turn a business, how do you make a business out of something that is perceived as something that is a boring, pain in the ass, must-have compliance thing? How do you make it, apart from running the business from what looks like the inside of the Doctor Who TARDIS, uh, apart from that, how do you you I know you guys have done a great job with the brand, but how like how do you make this not boring and not a pain in the ass?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so in this situation, our entire business model is focusing on web agencies, and since I have experience being a web agency owner, I really just kind of wrote down everything I want to see, both in a product and both in in terms of education. And like something I like that seemed to strike well with the audience of web agencies is like don't be pushy with sales, just be educational. Um, give them something free to try out before they start advocating for it. Um, and give them the ability to make some recurring revenue. Um, all three of those were some key focuses we had. So when we branded it as Termageddon, um we we we looked at other brands that we liked. And there was one company in particular called emailonacid.com. And uh emailonacid.com is a tool I used when sending out email marketing campaigns for some of our bigger marketing clients. Um and email on acid would tell you, you know, hey, send a test email to email on acid, and then they will give you the layout look and feel on every device, every browser, um, every email uh service provider. And that's kind of a boring offering, you know, like just launching that business, but the whole branding behind email on acid, I can't help but remember the name forever. And I was thinking, you know, with Termageddon, we have to have something, we're we're dealing with the most boring thing on earth. There's not one single web agency that got into business to deal with privacy policy. So this is a this is a byproduct of running a profitable agency. It's like having to deal with the fact that they that you're building websites that collect personal data and that's now regulated, and now you have to deal with it. And so we just felt like having a fun, loose approach matched who we are as people, but also, you know, um could align with people that we're willing to work with as well. So, and you know, being in the realm of privacy law compliance, you know, we always had to back that up. So I may be like the loose, leave, you know, loose kind of branding, fun, everything's fun kind of person, but you know, Denata, since we last talked, Troy, Danata's now the chair of the American Bar Association's e-privacy committee. She's providing guidance to US legislators on how to write privacy laws. She's friends with the person friends with the person who wrote Canada's privacy law, calls Australian government agencies all the time. Um so you know, she she we're able to back up.
SPEAKER_04She's described as the most boring person on earth.
SPEAKER_03Um but uh it's a nice conversation.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's that's great positioning, like having that having those positions on on the board and having those connections is great positioning and it makes you the ultimate authority. How I'm gonna ask the elephant in the room, how are you different to Termly or are you Bender or any of those other services?
SPEAKER_03For sure. Um our DNA is working with web agencies. So our platform is built specifically to help web agencies help their clients. Um, little examples like being able to duplicate licenses. So if you tend to build websites with a similar tech stack using, let's say, WordPress, Gravity Forms, Google Analytics, and maybe an active campaign connection, you can actually duplicate licenses to help expedite the website policy generation process for your clients. Another great example is like um the fact that licenses can be shared. So if you are reselling Termageddon, you can actually share the license with your client. By sharing the license with your client, that ensures they get not only access to update their policies whenever they want, but it also ensures that your client will receive updates whenever the laws change. Um and whenever we're updating their policies in the first place. So the biggest difference between us, in my opinion, is that um, well, from a user standpoint, it's the um those features that help support web agencies be as profitable as possible. Now, that being said, that's my perspective, and I'm sure Janata, if you want to speak up on the comprehensiveness, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So uh I guess for me that's definitely not the most important difference. Um to me, the most important difference is and no shade towards our competitors, uh, but our privacy policies that we generate for our clients actually include all the disclosures that are required by the privacy laws that apply to you. So the way the process works is as the first step, we actually help you determine what privacy laws apply to you. And then the remainder of the questions are based on that to make sure that you have all of the disclosures required by those laws that apply to you. And then we also keep track of privacy bills and laws a lot closer than our competitors do as well. So we keep track of all the bills in the United States, Australia, Canada, UK, EU, all of that. Um, and we make sure to update those privacy policies on time prior to the laws going into effect, um, which our competitors have failed to do on numerous occasions.
SPEAKER_03And a really good example is CCPA, the California Consumer Privacy Act, which is California's second privacy law that's in effect. And so many of our competitors will say, Do you want to be CCPA compliant? And you say yes or no. When in reality, it is it's that law was not created just to give people businesses an option to comply or not. No, it is required by law if you do business in California and if you meet one of the following three criteria. If you generate more than $25 million in revenue, if you process the data of 50,000 more California consumers, or if you derive more than 50% of your business from selling the personal information of California consumers. So you have to say yes to one of those three questions and do business in California for you to be forced to comply with CCPA. So our tool is all about helping you figure out what life what laws you need to comply with in the first place, in the hope that you or uh with the intent to ask you the questions that produce the disclosures actually required by the laws you need to comply with.
SPEAKER_00This is this is a very good example because I I I've been through some of the competitors, and I'll name them. I've been through Termly and Are You Bender, and I can't answer these questions. I don't know if I need to be CCPA compliant. So guess what happens? Then I start going through the process, and I'm like, fuck, this is gonna take me three weeks to figure this out. I'm just gonna put it in the too hard basket and pray nobody sues me.
SPEAKER_04Right. And that's and that is and I think a great example too is Australia, right? So, like one of the disclosures that you need to make under Australia's privacy law is whether you subscribe to any Australia privacy codes. Turnley and Iabendo don't ask those questions just because I think they don't have the legal team or the infrastructure in place to know what those laws actually require, or maybe they don't care about that. But we actually make sure to comb through each law extensively, and that's why it took us so long to launch in Australia because we had to Oh, sorry, well cats out of the bag.
SPEAKER_00There's a cat running across the room. I think the cat's out of the bag, ladies and gentlemen. What are we just doing? You wanna you wanna you wanna fill us in? What's what's happening?
SPEAKER_03So on Friday, yeah, you deserve this more than thank you, since I'm the one who engineered the entire thing.
SPEAKER_04We are now available for businesses that are based in Australia. So anyone that are based in Australia can now generate your policies with term capital.
SPEAKER_00Thanks. The week that I become incorporated in the States, you launch in Australia. Appreciate that. Thanks. Your timing couldn't be worse.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're waiting for you to become US based and then so go on, Christina.
SPEAKER_02No, I was just saying, because you know, I've got about 18 licenses myself, and so I re use it regularly. I think one of the beauties that I that I like about it is that WYSI is that wizard effect that you have, that if you if this, then that, and so I walk through it with my clients, and I'm curious, is that the kind of process that you would recommend for some of you some of these folks? But obviously, let's go back to the Australian side of things. But um, yeah, that was just kind of one of my questions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um this is a balancing act because let's be real, a lot of clients know less than even the web agency. The web agency will know if they have Google Analytics installed, the client might not have any clue. So I personally believe in it's a balancing act, but the most important thing is just ensuring you share the license with your client, whether you go through a screen share and go through it together first, or right when you what right when they say, Yeah, set me up with a Termageddon license, you just share it and send them the invoice. So it really is up to the agency and just kind of balancing out reality, which is that some clients need their hands held, others don't. Um, and one thing I'll note is, you know, as I'm sure you would know with Donata being the president of the company, is we don't sacrifice comprehensiveness for usability. Uh comprehensiveness is number one, um, because that's why, and that's why we're recognized as a top privacy uh policy generator by the IAPP. Um but one thing I'm really excited to talk about is now that we've launched Australia, we're gonna be heading into some major um UX improvements as well. So um that's gonna be the next big milestone for us is like implementing like a scanning feature, implementing um uh suggestions and everything like that over the coming you know months and I should also just I should have just dropped this now that for those uh in Australia who are now uh able to reach out and chat with you guys.
SPEAKER_00And for anyone else around the world listening, if you haven't already checked out Toomageddon, uh get on over to Toomageddon and get in touch and mention agency Mavericks. And if you mention agency Mavericks, what will happen, Hans? You'll hit that big green button behind you and the TARDIS will explode and you'll take off into outer space.
SPEAKER_03In addition to explosions, um, we will actually, instead of giving you one free license forever, which we that's our standard business model, we give agencies one free license for their own website, we'll give you two. Um so if you have two websites, great. You can use both licenses for both of your websites, or maybe you have one website, you can use the other and resell it for you know the 99 bucks a year process and see what that experience looks like. So you can see for yourself, you know, is this a tool I could see myself reselling to all my clients?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and all you have to do is go to termagedon.com and um click on agency partners and apply there and mention agency mavericks and you get to two free licenses. Do you know that we process those manually? So it might take us a couple hours to get to your registration. So don't make a payment or anything, just hold tight and then we'll issue you the two free licenses and send you an email confirming that that's been done.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Um I'm curious, who else is on the team besides you two?
SPEAKER_03So we have so when I sold my agency, I sold my 12-person agency to a 75-person dev shop in Iowa. Um, and we gave them the contract on working with Termageddon for several years. So we're still working with them, they're absolutely fantastic.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, we're we're so they're our design team, and then on the legal side, and Hans is the agency partnership side.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03Cool.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Uh, what what what did you have to do in effect to get into Australia to get this private? I mean, I can't imagine it's just all those laws that are in place. It's bad enough in the US with California, Nevada. I mean, I keep waiting for Texas privacy laws to kick in. I don't know when that's gonna happen, but you know, these are all these individual laws. How how did you manage to get Australian privacy laws and terms and conditions?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so Australia has the Australia Privacy Act of 1988, and then that comes with the text of the law itself, and then it comes with various guidelines and cases. So basically, it was me and another attorney, and then combing through those laws, um, so and all of that guidance to see what the privacy policy requirements are. So, like who the law applies to and what the requirements are for the privacy policy and how those should be written. And then, you know, there's always some kind of confusion with how the law is written versus how it should be implemented. So that was working with other attorneys in Australia and the Australian Information Commissioner's Office as well, of like reconciling those differences. So once you know what the law actually requires, then you map those requirements, those disclosures, um, see what questions you would need to ask to get to those disclosures, and then mapping Australia's privacy law and how it connects to all the other privacy laws that we include in our generator. So, like, for example, if you need CCPA compliance and Australia privacy law compliance, you know, how those interact together and what the text would say, writing up all the questions, all the different options, what happens if they answer yes to this, what happens if they answer no to that, um, and then writing all of the text and all the different iterations of all the things that could happen, mapping all those together, adding them together with all of the different privacy laws that we actually offer compliance with. Um, and then you know, giving that over to the dev team and actually developing all of that logic and all that text and all of those options out. So it's a very long process, it's a very tedious process. It can be a very frustrating process, especially when you have to work with legislators on like reconciling differences and stuff. Um, but yeah, that's that's basically how you deal it.
SPEAKER_03And I'll tell you, my day feels very I feel very uh unaccomplished every single day I work with Donata because I'm like, hey, what do you like, what'd you do over the last 30 minutes? Like, oh, I spoke with the Australian Commissioner's office for my gosh on a privacy law from you know thirty years ago, and I'm just like, Man, I like sent four emails.
SPEAKER_04So um Yeah, it basically starts off with a like A thousand and five sticky notes, and then goes into like the mapping, which is a bunch of different charts and color coding and all of that. So it's a it's a very interesting process.
SPEAKER_00Very comprehensive. You were right, huh? She's very comprehensive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. Um, and Christina, just uh make a note to what you were talking about, the privacy bills in the US. There are 20 privacy bills in the US right now. Several of them, uh, if passed, will enable citizens of that state to sue any website owner located anywhere for collecting their name on a contact form without a proper privacy policy, comply with their privacy laws. We add so we basically pay a lot of money for several software systems that monitor privacy laws and alert us, uh excuse me, monitor privacy laws and privacy bills and alert us whenever there's changes being made and being proposed. So that's what allows us to constantly monitor and update um our our map our customers on what's going on with the privacy law landscape. So that's for kind of the first run, and then we obviously are, well, Donatus now the chair of the uh American Barcy Privacy Committee, and it's not just the American Bar that's a part of that group. She brings in people from who wrote privacy laws elsewhere around the world. Um, so that community, as well as the IEPP, the International Association of Privacy Professionals, of which Donatus, the Chicago chapter chair, um, which is a network of international privacy attorneys and certified information privacy professionals. So it's several networks that we're connected with deeply that we communicate with at least.
SPEAKER_04And actually, Australia is um considering an update to its privacy law as well. So that's been added to the tracking too.
SPEAKER_02Well, and all those things that you talk about just now, all those little areas of changes here, changes here, that's how I sell this. So it every privacy term again is on every proposal that I have because I think it's just that important. And when they ask me why, I basically just run down the constant changes that are occurring in the US and Australia now. And I remind them you can either do this or you can hire a privacy attorney, right? So you can decide, and you never know when this the change is gonna happen. And your privacy attorney probably isn't going to tell you, hey, you needed to update your privacy. And who knows, who knows how long that's gonna take. So that's one of my selling points is I kind of run through all these bullet points that you guys provide, and it's it almost sells itself just because of the the the there's just so much to it constantly changing, and and the threat is there.
SPEAKER_04What is the United Kingdom and um Canada are actually considering changes to their privacy laws too, just because so many companies have done um a lot of privacy abuses have happened lately, and there's so much tracking happening online, and a lot of these privacy laws just need to be updated, considering how personal information is used nowadays. So pretty much every country is considering updates right now.
SPEAKER_03And I gotta I gotta say, real quick, you know, for anyone who's just needs to be like refreshed real quick, it's important if I could teach web agencies anything, and that's kind of like the mission I'm on with Termageddon, it's two things. Well, three things. Number one, don't copy and paste privacy policy templates for your clients.
SPEAKER_02Like that was like or those free generators. Okay, I'll be honest with you.
SPEAKER_03I did the free generator thing so good, you know. And that was one that was what started Termageddon, is like I was like, of course I copy and paste privacy policies for my clients, and Donata couldn't believe it.
SPEAKER_04I almost fell out of my chair just like Troy did.
SPEAKER_03Um the second thing I want to say is like if you can just remember anything, just know that personal information is regulated by privacy laws, and privacy laws don't care about where a business is located.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You can be located in Chicago, but you have to comply with one or both of California's privacy laws if you collect data from that, uh from California residents. And that pri that is a universal fact of privacy laws, and privacy laws don't care where you're located, they only are there to protect their residents. And that's the broad-reaching nature of privacy laws. And it leads me to my third statement, which is that we're firm believers that you cannot just have a privacy policy and then move on in life. You have to have a strategy to keep it up with new, uh keep it up to date with new disclosures as they become required by new applicable privacy laws. And that's just like the three main messages I I I you see recycled even almost in our messaging until it finally like until our partner's like, ah, I get it. I shouldn't copy and paste privacy policies. I should tell my clients, go to a privacy attorney, or you can use an alternative like Termageddon. And that's that seems to be a good messaging that's educational and not salesy, it's just to the point.
SPEAKER_00Before I uh ask a philosophical question about privacy, what's the recurring revenue model for an agency partner reselling Termageddon? What's the potential upside?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um you can sell term termaged in retail is at 99 bucks a year. So I always recommend charging like a $200 setup fee, one to $200 setup fee, just to copy and paste the embed codes on the site. Christina mentioned like doing a Zoom walkthroughs and just make sure you charge for your setup time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, perfect. Yeah, perfect. And then and then just uh set them up with an automated $99 per year subscription. Um, you as an agency partner will be able to buy licenses one at a time at $38 and 40 cents per year and be able to share the license with them. So it's great because you get paid for your time to do the setup, and then you make an extra $100 a year off that client. Um, and you know, no one's getting rich off term again uh by any stretch of the word, but you are educating your client on the fact that, you know, hey, I just built a website for you that can collect regulated data.
SPEAKER_02It's a really great tool to keep in touch with your clients. So it's a you know, beyond just our strategy calls that we typically have, it's a it's a great excuse to have that annual conversation. Okay, 22 coming around. We got to go through A, B, C, and your Termageddon um uh privacy policy in terms of let's just go through it together. Has anything changed? Has your return policies changed? Have your cancellations changed, you know, and I don't know that. So it's just a really great way to keep in front of our clients on an annual basis.
SPEAKER_04You know, actually, there's one thing that I did forget to mention. So the we're launching privacy policies in terms of service for Australian customers, and the beauty of what I did.
unknownThank you, Bright.
SPEAKER_04Um if you have a terms of service that you're generating with Termageddon and you do business with Australian consumers, so you sell goods or services to Australian consumers through your website, you do need to comply with Australian consumer protection laws. And those laws have very strict requirements on what warranties you offer, cancellations, refunds, all of that information. And what the wizard does is when you're answering the questionnaire, so when you're answering the question of like what warranties do you provide, it actually provides you with information of what warranties you need to provide under Australian consumer protection laws. So you can make sure that your warranties comply with those laws so that you're not investigated or fined by the government for violating um Australian consumer protection laws. So it provides you with information on what to add there to make sure you're compliant with those laws, which is also something that our competitors don't do. So you can make sure that you have all those right disclosures, that you're compliant with the Australian Privacy Act and the Consumer Protection Laws at the same time for your terms and your privacy policy.
SPEAKER_03And I should know, Denna said it earlier, we're not here to bash our competitors, we're just here to build the most comprehensive generator in the world. And that's really okay.
SPEAKER_00This is a private Facebook group, you can beat the shit out of your competitors if you want that on mind. In fact, I encourage that kind of behavior here. Um the the uh uh so the way I would position this is I wouldn't even mention the price of Tourmageddon. In fact, I wouldn't even mention Tourmageddon. I would just this would be if you're if but I would position this as part of our growth plan. By the way, the compliance work is a given. We're just gonna take care of that for you. We just that's a done service for our growth partners. My hard cost is 38.40 a year. I wouldn't I personally wouldn't be selling this as a separate line item to clients, I'd be putting it as part of their growth plan or their premium care plan or whatever. That way I'd just make more out of it and I wouldn't have to itemize it. Um that's just my personal take on it. Um the the how e uh what's in is it is it an embed code that I is that what happens? How does it auto-update? Because so on my page it's actually like an iframe or something, is it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um, after you generate your policies, you get an embed code, and that's just what gets copied and pasted into the body of the policy pages. Um that is what allows us at Termagun to control what that those policies say and push updates whenever they want. And just so you know, um, with what you just mentioned earlier, Troy, um, there's many agencies that do white label us. My personal recommendation is to take advantage of being able to share the license with the client. And you know, the unfortunate thing is they will see the term again branding at that point in time, but by sharing the license, it really does mean it's a set-it and forget it solution for the agency because then you no longer feel like you have to communicate privacy law updates in the future. Now, Christina takes it to the next level by use leveraging it as an opportunity to speak with clients. So I totally see how you could implement it, and I will definitely say Termagun is built with maintenance plans in mind and care plans in mind. So um, that's why we great example is why we say as an approved agency partner, you instantly get access to wholesale rates that you can buy one at a time. You don't have to buy a hundred, you can just buy them one at a time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, can I buy fifty at a time?
SPEAKER_03Yes, you can. We we always have specials.
SPEAKER_04When you share the license with a client, they'll accept our terms of service and our privacy policy, meaning that we're the ones that are responsible for their privacy policy. So, you know, you probably don't necessarily want to be responsible for that because that could open up your agency to fines or lawsuits if your client is fined or sued for privacy law non-compliance. So having them accept our terms of service means that we're the ones that are responsible. That's why we've heard that it can help protect your agency.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. What what what's what how do you get how do you leverage termaged in to start a conversation with a prospect that you want to, that you that you can see there's potential here for a bigger project, but I just want to get my foot in the door.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so a foot in the door strategy is when when you start to get it doesn't have to be termaged. If you just start to learn about your role as the web designer and building lead generating websites, but having everything in mind, when once once you pick up the knowledge of what you need to disclose as a professional web agency as it relates to privacy, you have an edge on competitors. And and I guess this is salesy, but this is just genuinely how I feel. Because once you start to like understand a tool like Termagin, you're gonna start to see websites that are clearly not doing things correctly with website policies. And that to me is yet again one of those types of foot-in-the-door type opportunities to kind of raise awareness of like, look, you're collecting regulated data, you know, I don't know what your plans are, but if you haven't updated your website in a while, you know, maybe we can talk about some opportunities on how to build a fully comprehensive website. So that's really a roughed up, I would have to you know actually.
SPEAKER_00Because otherwise you can come across as being quite spammy, right? Like, hey, I was checking out your website and it doesn't like your privacy policies compliant, and you're gonna get your ass sued, but I can help you for a hundred bucks. Exactly, because that's what I would do. How do you because I'm not very sophisticated? So, how do you avoid that? Like, how do you what's the the uh the angle to tactfully uh it's like the carrot and the stick, isn't it? How do you whack someone with a stick but do it tastefully?
SPEAKER_03So I'm I love sales, I love helping people, and that's why I love sales. So I as a salesperson, I personally think that Termagun is not like gonna be some sort of magical lead generator where it's going to just open all doors and give you all this business. But what I do see it being is a representation for your comprehensive knowledge of what makes a website great. And that's why I think like it might not be like that that like initial thing that you do that starts a conversation, but I think it's while you're having the conversation, you being able to demonstrate that you have a lot more knowledge than just building a high-converting website, that you know what it takes to build a great website.
SPEAKER_04So I know that I'm not sales, but can I try this for a second? Okay, so here's my take on it. And again, I'm not in sales, so I could be completely wrong here, but a lot of people focus on the fines and the lawsuits that can come from privacy law non-compliance. And that's obviously really important. You want to make sure that your clients aren't fine pursued. But there is another portion of privacy compliance that can actually benefit a business. So a lot of consumers nowadays are actually looking out for privacy policies and good privacy practices when they're determining whether or not to do business with somebody. And if you don't believe me on that, feel free to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram. I actually share a lot of very interesting studies that have been done recently on how privacy can be a competitive advantage and how it can actually win you customers. Um, and I think that those studies and those figures is something that can be very beneficial to share with customers or prospects when talking about why they need a privacy policy or why privacy law compliance can actually get them business. So maybe sharing some of the more positive facts around privacy law compliance can help as well.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I like to also discuss that the terms of service. So it's not just the privacy policy. For me, the sales, the the thing that attracts a lot of people are those terms of service. They don't really think about these questions when it comes to returns and cancellations, and it almost gets like, I never even thought about that. We don't have that documented anywhere. And again, I go back, well, people are looking for this stuff. What they're gonna, and most of my clients are in the construction field. So they want to know is what happens if I give you a deposit. If it's in the terms and of service, and and and again, these aren't e-commerce sites. I I explained to them, these aren't products, and when am I gonna get my money back if it doesn't work? These are service industries. And I explained to them that with privacy and terms of service, it's still very, very important to outline and be very transparent about cancellations and deposits and refunds and when do I get, you know, is it after you start? Is it before? And they're like, we just never thought of that. Yeah, so it's a really great conversation to have. And I think going back to y'all's point, when it comes to a sales tool, I don't really sell this in any first calls, you know. We I it usually is discussed when I'm presenting the proposal. I say, oh, by the way, we're gonna do this for you. Um, but I do like Troy's idea of just not, it's not a separate item. If you're on my premier care plan, then it's just included. We're doing this for you. I'll share it. You know, you're still gonna have access to termaged and it is termaged in brands all over the place, but it's not you don't have to pay an additional fee until you decide to leave. But yeah, I think part of the sales is just having that conversation again. I know what I'm talking about. I'm authority, I'm an expert in my field, and here's why.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, do you guys sorry? Do you guys do you guys do e-commerce like shipping and returns policies and absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_04Um, so cancellation policies, shipping policies, uh, returns, refunds, warranties, remedies, all of that is included in the terms of service. And another thing to think about is put yourself in the shoes of the consumer too. So if I'm buying something online, my first question is am I going to be able to return this if it doesn't work for me? And I look at their terms of service, and if it doesn't include that information, I'll go somewhere else that tells me exactly what I need to know. I'm not going to contact the business and ask them for their returns policy. I'm not going to waste my time. So having all of that information included in your terms, if you have an e-commerce website, whether it's goods, services, or digital products, is very, very helpful in moving that consumer towards making a purchase. At least when I buy stuff, it's like that for me. And I'm sure it's like that for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_03And Troy, a very cool thing about our returns, cancellations, and stuff like that is Donato's mentioned earlier, we've integrated consumer protection laws spanning multiple countries, and we'll give you alerts, like if you're trying to do something that's not allowed. Um agreed.
SPEAKER_04And you can still proceed, even if it's not allowed, if you want to break the law, that's up to you. But we do provide you with those notifications. If you're from the UK or Australia, US doesn't really have consumer protection laws that apply to terms of service, so it's kind of with the Wild West out here. But if you are in one of those countries, we do provide you with notifications of what's allowed, what's not allowed, what you should do, what you shouldn't do.
SPEAKER_03And I have a fun fact for you. Did you know if you're an Ireland resident, that your consumer protection rights give you the ability to buy something and then return it for full price refund up to seven years after buying it? Boom! I'm gonna move to Ireland and buy a car and just return it after six years as long as send it back after seven years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm done. Give me a refund.
SPEAKER_05Isn't that almost seven years?
SPEAKER_00I I have a I have a philosophical conversation that could derail things a little bit. Tell me, why does privacy matter?
SPEAKER_03So in my yeah, I'll let you digest it. I have some initial immediate thoughts. Um, the one thing I've been really focused on is I don't like how everyone thinks about, oh, well, it's just because of remarketing and like I'm just gonna get more relevant ads to me. Like, I don't think that's a I don't think that's a valuable reason to respect the right to privacy. I'm a big believer in that it is a right to have, there is a right to privacy that people should have, and we don't know what will happen if people lose that, if people lose privacy rights. And I I speak to that thinking about other laws that have passed in America, like, well, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna decline from speaking specifics just because I don't want this to become a political thing, but the moment people lose rights is when I think the moment they can be taken more advantage of and lose, I mean, it's losing rights, lack of the lack of ability to say things they may want to say and stuff like that. So I would say that the right to privacy is important because we don't know what will happen if people don't have a right to privacy.
SPEAKER_00Interesting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh for me, so privacy is generally defined as the right to be left alone. Um and to me, I think that's very, very important is the ability to not be inundated with things that I don't necessarily want to see. Um, you know, whether it's ads, whether it's the incessant text messages that are that are used for marketing without people's permission, things like that are just very annoying to people. Um and whether or not you think that privacy matters to you, doing those things can tarnish your reputation as a brand. Um it really can, because if somebody receives something from you that they didn't want to get, like for example, if I get a text message from you at 3 a.m. that's you know a marketing text, and obviously no one here has done that. Um, you know, sorry. I've never received a text from anyone here. But you know, tiny matter of time to do people are annoyed by that and they won't want to do business with you. Um, you know, so it's no longer people no longer think that, okay, I can just give up my information for this discount, and all I get is a discount, and then we're done, and I'm happy. No, it follows you around and follows you for for months and years and years and years, and that's something that's very annoying to consumers. Um, and it's something that can make consumers stop wanting to do business with you. And I think in a business setting, that's probably why privacy is important, is not losing customers.
SPEAKER_00What what what about what about like what about things like identity theft?
SPEAKER_03So identity theft well, I'll have to think about that. You think about that one. I want to go back to the philosophy question, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, because because there are there are like particularly, you know, or or credit card theft, for example, right? Like, I mean, it there are there are uh I mean there was a story, you know, years ago, Woo themes had a horrible experience uh back in, I think it was like I want to say maybe 2015, maybe I was at WordCamp Europe and they'd just been through a horrible experience where they had a whole bunch of customer, their customer database was hacked and a whole bunch of credit cards were stolen, and it was awful. And they'd made a decision not to not to not to have not to host customer credit card details on filing. Well I think they went back to a PayPal checkout back then. Um but I mean there there there are there are my wife's a psychologist, right? So so we have like I mean we don't have a home phone number, but her mobile number is silent, our address is like not listed, uh she's very conscious of like people not knowing, you know, her name on Facebook is not her real name. Um, you know, she goes by Cindy Crawford on Facebook, which is you know um uh so so she whereas me, I'm like, I don't give a shit. Put a chip in my head and follow me around and broadcast my life on YouTube. I don't give a like I got nothing to hide, right? In fact, you know, like if people find it interesting, they're a bit sad if they want to follow me around and watch my life. So uh where so I'm like the polar opposite. I don't I don't I actually don't I'd have random strangers like walk like watch me through the window and I'd go, hey you doing? It's good. Like it wouldn't bother me at all, right? I'd get off on that. So I'm like the opposite end of the spectrum, and um, but now that we've got kids, I kind of get that there is something about protecting the like they're not on Facebook, like my kids are not on social media, we don't take photos.
SPEAKER_02I don't share birthdays, I don't post them all the hap-so happy she got this award, and I don't in the world about other because I know how the algorithm works, and I'm like, stay away from my fucking children.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh so but I'm happy to exploit the algorithm for my own commercial benefit. So um, because I'm a capitalist and I'm allowed to do that. So but but I'm curious, like is like privacy is not just about retargeting, and it's not just about receiving text messages. I mean, there are deeper implications of having your I mean, I go through my one password vault, right? I'm like, holy shit, there are 850 companies on the internet that have my email address. And my first name and probably my phone number and my address and my credit card. My that's only a matter of time before Oh, it's done.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean, matter of time? That's your address and phone, it's out there. It's you know, when you get all these targets been been hacked in your email and phone numbers, I'm like, that's such old news at this point. I assume my number's out there, I assume everything's out there. So it's just a protection on purpose.
SPEAKER_00I think the deeply implication. I mean, I don't give a shit about people ringing me and trying to sell me stuff because I had fun with them. Like, I it's it's a game for me. I love it. Uh, because they're really most of them are really bad, uh, especially the guys that pretend to be from Amazon that want to clarify your account details. I'm like, really? I'll play the game. I'll I happens a couple of times a week, and they're awful at it. And I tell them, I'm like, dude, you're an awful scam, dude. Like, you don't know what you're doing, right? Let me hang with me for a bit, brother. I'll teach a certain thing or two. Um, but it's really the identity theft that that frighten it's like having my passport, like like there being like a terrorist attack somewhere, and then me being identified as one of the perpetrators or one of the or being involved because my passport was used right as fault. That's the thing that frightens the shit out of me. And so, you know, I I do as I as I get older and I have children and I become I pretend to become more responsible, I do I am actually getting a little bit concerned about privacy, but it's not from a marketing thing, it's like it it's it's having my identity stolen, I think. Right. I'll just get my passport if you like and hold it up to the screen in front of the screenshot. And then we're done, right?
SPEAKER_04You know, there's a couple things that go there, right? So a great example is facial recognition. So a lot of software now, a lot of phones, a lot of stores use facial recognition um without the consumer's permission or even knowledge, right? And that facial recognition can be used later on to potentially create deepfakes or transpose your facial image over somebody else who robbed that store, right? Um, or or somebody who assaulted somebody by that store. Um, or you can be incorrectly identified as that person who committed that assault if your facial features are relatively similar to the person who did that. And your biometrics can't be changed. So you can change your passport number, get a new social security number, um, you know, get a new license, things like that. You can't change your facial biometrics, you can't change your fingerprint, um, things like that can't be changed. Um, and those privacy violations will follow you for the rest of your life. Um, you know, unauthorized charges on your card, um, you know, people taking loans or mortgages out in your name, things like that.
SPEAKER_05Oh wow.
SPEAKER_04But one thing that we don't really think about is societal norms and expectations. So the things that companies know about you today, they create a profile of you, right? And they use that profile for targeting and ads and whatever, and we can look past that violation regardless of how annoying it is. But let's say that right now you have a dog, right? And we have dogs too, and the societal norm right now is that it's completely normal to have dogs. Everybody has dogs, it's great, we love them. Let's say 10 years from now, owning a dog becomes something that's really horrible, right? It becomes a taboo. And now, because that profile was created of you, you're known as this horrible dog owner, right? So societal norms and expectations change. And if there's profiles built about you that have this information that's really innocent now, right? Nobody can use that information against you that you're a dog owner. But if those societal norms change, all of a sudden that information can become extremely damaging to you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. We see it happening now all the time, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and if you don't have the right to privacy to have that information deleted about you, that information can follow you and turn against you in the future as well. So that's to me, that's probably the most scary part of privacy violations is what can happen in the future. Like, yes, now they use it to target ads and sandy tracks, but what can you do with it in the future?
SPEAKER_03So I can't help but jump in and maybe I can articulate how the philosophical question, like, why does privacy matter? And and my one and my one-sentence response would be because I don't want to live out a Black Mirror experience. And I really mean it that way because Black Mirror plays out scenarios of what the future could look like, and that's why it's so eerie to anyone who watches it. It's like, oh, I could see it come becoming this, and like and privacy rights are a fight back towards that, towards that dystopian type of look and feel. And and you know, I'm not trying to be a doomer here, like I look, I I China's got a very strict, you know, when it comes to their social credits. Oh gosh, right?
SPEAKER_02When you look at how what China's done, that's a Black Mirror episode right there and then episode, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, absolutely, and to think that that's where we're at right now when smartphones didn't even exist 10 years ago and we're already at that stage, like so so I don't I can't predict what the future will be like, but what I can say is the world would be in a better place if we human beings have rights to our privacy. And and because there's so many ways this could get very slippery very quickly.
SPEAKER_04Actually, I have a great example. Real quick, hold on, real quick.
SPEAKER_03It goes back to what um Troy said about identity theft. So when I think of identity theft, I think about one person's identity getting stolen. It kind of caught me off guard there, but really, how does identity theft happen in bulk? Well, that's through a data breach. A data breach is occurring when a company's database gets hacked. And if people don't have privacy laws out there, a company in theory doesn't even have to disclose the fact that they were breached. And how horrifying of an idea is that, where a company doesn't have a legal obligation to disclose to their users, like, hey, we got breached. Like that's a that's an issue that I I believe that people who gave data to a company, they have a right to know did my data get breached? And you know, can I delete my data ahead of time in case I don't want them to have that data that they don't necessarily need.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I have a real quick, I have a really good example of what happens when there's a lack of privacy rights, and this actually happened to me. So I am a resident of Illinois, and I have essentially no privacy rights because I reside here and we have no comprehensive privacy law unless you're talking about biometrics. Anyways, I used to have an Amazon account, used to have. So what happened was I received an email saying that my account password has been changed, and I never requested that account password to be changed. I try to go into my account, can't get in it. Turns out that my account got hacked, and it had all of my information, my past purchases, my credit card information, my address, like the addresses of my family members that I bought gifts for before. And I contacted Amazon saying, Hey, you need to lock down this account because it's been hacked. You never sent me a password confirmation email, like nothing, and they refused to do it. And I asked, Can you delete my account then? And they refused to do it. Can you delete my information? No, we can't. And they tried to reset my account. They sent the information to reset the account to the scammer. I mean, it was just a nightmare, and I didn't have the right to ask for my personal information to be deleted. So this person had access to all of this information, could use it however they wanted to do it, and Amazon refused to do anything, and I didn't have the right to have it deleted. So I was basically just shit out of luck. And what I ended up doing because I'm a privacy lawyer is I contacted my state's attorney general, complained, and then my account was deleted really quickly.
SPEAKER_02But that's oh my god, but you had to go to that that way, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a great example. You have to go to have your information deleted, even though you know for a fact that a scammer had access to it. And that's what happens when you don't have privacy rights. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So and I will note, we're jump, we're jumping into philosophy. This is this is not an official position. No, no, no. I drag this in human beings talking, you know, what does this world look like without it's interesting like how quickly societal norms change, right?
SPEAKER_00I was born in the 70s, kind of grew up in the in the late 70s and the 80s. I have a bunch of books from my childhood called Golden Circle Books, and they have this kind of gold spine, and they're all on the top shelf of Oscar's uh bookshelf. He's now four, and he he's like, I want to read one of these at night. We're reading books, we're in like 800 books every night before he goes to bed. It's a fucking production, like a two-hour pantomime just to get the kid into bed. Anyway, I'll take one of these books off the shelf, and it's the little old lady who lives in a shoe, and I'm like, Oh, we'll read you this story, the little old lady who lives in a shoe, who spanks her children every night before they go to bed, right? And I'm like, Oh, hang on, no, no, uh, we can't, I'll just close the book before we get to that, right? And then uh we're reading uh Hansel and Gretel, which is traumatic. The stepmother left I'd never read it before, right? I'm reading and I'm like, oh, this is a happy book. The stepmother leaves them in the woods to perish, and they happen to find their way to a little bit. I can cook them, right? I'm like, what the hell? So anyway, so now we have this funny thing where whenever I'm talking about, you know, when daddy grew up, Oscar says, Oh, is that back in the old days where people used to smack their children? Oh my god, yes, that's right. That's what used to happen in the 70s, right? And sometimes I'll say to him, You're lucky it's not the 70s, dude. You're lucky it's not the 70s, right?
SPEAKER_02I've got a book from Germany from the 60s where I I still have it. It it its purpose was to scare children, purposely scare children. And it's a you can find it, it's it's old, but it's from the 30s and 40s. My mother gave it to me, and it's like a a kid that kept sucking his thumb. He cut they cut his thumbs off. The book has blood squirting out of his hands with this dude with a scissor. That's what I grew up with. I grew up with books like that. Yeah. So spam.
SPEAKER_00We're talking a generation. We're talking like a generation, and things have changed. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04In 30 years, we're gonna say, can you believe that companies used to just take our data and do whatever they wanted with it, and we couldn't do anything about it?
SPEAKER_02Hey, before I want to ask, there's a couple of chat questions in here if you don't mind, and then they're good. So one of them, and and I agree too, does everybody need a privacy policy? So does a window cleaner need a privacy policy?
SPEAKER_04So it yeah, so you need a privacy policy if your website is collecting personal information. Right. So if your website is collecting names, emails, phone numbers, addresses, or IP addresses, or really any information that could identify somebody, then you need to have a privacy policy. And websites usually collect that information through like contact forms, email newsletter sign-up forms, account creation forms, stuff like that. Um, and if you're looking to figure out whether a particular privacy law applies to you that requires your website to have a privacy policy, head over to our blog, termagedon.com slash blog, and search what laws require websites to have a privacy policy. And it'll have a list of all the privacy laws and who they apply to. So you can just quickly look through those requirements and see if any particular law requires you to have a privacy policy.
SPEAKER_03And I think I think James just asked, like, well, when does a website not need a privacy policy? And that one's really simple. When a website's not collecting personal information, so personal information, names, emails, phone numbers, IP addresses, that is regulated data. So if you're not collecting that, you do not need a privacy policy.
SPEAKER_02But what if you're doing Google Analytics?
SPEAKER_03That's collecting IP address and sharing that data with data analytics providers.
SPEAKER_02And so to me, every website has a Google Analytics. In my opinion. If you're using Google Analytics, you gotta have a privacy policy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So actually, the terms of service of Google Analytics also requires you to have a privacy policy. So when you install that, you agree to their terms of service, you agree to have a privacy policy information.
SPEAKER_02That's even more of a selling point than I gotta put that in my proposal.
SPEAKER_03And I know it's kind of like a it sounds like a little thingy. Well, any website that doesn't collect personal information, and then everyone's like, well, every website collects personal information. I'm like, aha. There so so that's kind of but but it's important, I think it is grounding, at least it was for me, to understand what website doesn't need a privacy policy. A website that doesn't collect personal information. Yeah, that's simple.
SPEAKER_04There's websites out there that don't collect it. It is possible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh Jaden wanted to know your credentials again. Jaden, just go to termageddon.com and go to the about us page, and Donata's credentials are there uh as us as uh Hans's, but I think Donata's credentials in this case Hans are probably more appropriate. And a little more comprehensive, may I?
SPEAKER_03My bio's at the bottom, like you know, four. Oh, by the way, Hans, yeah. Like a crappy photo of me. Like here's Hans.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm a J D, um, licensed to practice in Illinois and a certified information privacy project.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Awesome. And the and the chair of the e-privacy committee, the American Bar Association. There you go. And Chicago, chapter chair of the International Association of Privacy Professionals. I got nothing. I'm a university dropout. Um, hey, this is the agency hour. We are well, actually, Pete's renamed it the agency almost hour. Uh, we are almost at the hour here. Um, termageddon.com is where you go to uh get a piece of the action. Let them know, let the guys know that you came from agency Mavericks, and they will give you not one, but two free lifetime licenses. One for your website, one you can resell to your mother-in-law for however much you can get, uh, and then have a conversation with them about how you can use Termageddon as part of your ongoing recurring revenue plans. Uh, that's awesome. Thank you so much for being here an hour earlier than you expected because of the time zones. Really appreciate it, and congratulations on launching in Australia. I think I'll get my team to get in touch with you and maybe you can do an audit of our privacy policies and let us know where we um are broken and how to fix it. That would be uh that would be cool.
SPEAKER_03I promise you we'll be comprehensive.
SPEAKER_04So thank you for having us. This is really fun.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. No worries. Hey, we're gonna bounce. Thanks very much for being here. Uh Hans and Donata from Termageddon. Thanks again.
SPEAKER_05Bye. Bye.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Christina. Ciao.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the Agency Hour Podcast. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocketcast, Audible, and wherever you'd like to listen. You can catch all of the Agency Hour episodes on our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash agency mavericks. Or you can get involved. Check out our free digital mavericks Facebook group, where we broadcast these episodes live for our community every week, along with a ton of free channels. We'll see you there.