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The Agency Hour
How to Convert at 85%
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As soon as we started selling e-commerce and building an e-commerce, um, I immediately was like, I'm making a huge mistake here. Um, and it was because we at the time it was related to the project specs, right? We were really having trouble going, well, how many products is this thing? And what categories do we have? And what's our shipping look like? And how are you gonna fulfill? And we started asking all these questions, and it just would turn out the client had literally no clue, right? They just sort of go on, I don't know. I just I thought I'd uh you know, make t-shirts and sell them online. I have no idea how I'm gonna deliver them. And so what started as product specs um started becoming like we've got to figure this out before we can actually do it. So the tech side is what tipped me to it, but I quickly learned that that could be applied just as equally to a business that says, you know, hey, we're a landscaping company and we've got, you know, we're doing okay in this 15 mile radius, but we want to go out wider, right? Well, the same exact principle comes in like, how many GMBs are we? And how many website properties need SEO done? And are we running ads? And it just would like to turn into all these questions that I was really trying to keep my triage calls down to 15 to 20 minutes, and there was no way, like I'd be on the phone with a client for an hour, hour and a half, whatever. And it's like I still didn't have all the data, right? Like I only knew what I knew. The devs that I had hired had different questions, the designers had different questions. Like, I go to talk to Simon, he has different questions about how we're gonna drive traffic, and all of a sudden, it's like there's I think it was really when I realized that it wasn't my mind only that the client needed. It was they needed my team to speak into their individual areas of their presence. And when I figured that out, I went, I can't do this, right? Because I started adding up how much does it cost me to put, you know, an SEO lead on a call, a tech lead, a design lead, like a content person. How long is this? You know, this is costing me, you know, three, four hundred bucks minimally to have this call. And I just, it was like one of those moments of going, I I gotta stop doing this, right? So I either have to stop doing this and just fire off proposals that I have no clue what the end result's gonna be, or I have to start getting paid to figure it out.
SPEAKER_01If you have a vision for the agency you want to build, then we want to help you build it. Welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast, brought to you by Agency Mavericks.
SPEAKER_00Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of the Agency Hour live here in the Digital Mavericks Facebook group and in your earbuds wherever you are listening to your podcasts. Uh hey, I'd be curious to know, by the way, if you're not in the Digital Mavericks Facebook group, why are you not in the Digital Mavericks Facebook group? Send us an email, support at agencymavericks.com and tell us a couple of things. One, if you're not in the Digital Mavericks Facebook group, why do you have do you not like Facebook groups? Do you think we're a bunch of idiots? Do you not like my voice? Uh are you do you just have an aversion to Facebook? Is there another community that you would belong to if it wasn't Facebook? Not saying we're going to build it, but I'm just curious. If you listen to this podcast and you're not in the group, send us an email, support at agencymatericks.com and tell us why. And the other thing I'm curious about is where are you listening to this podcast? I don't mean like at the gym or walking the dog. I mean what platform do you use to listen to this podcast? Are you listening on Spotify, Downcast? Uh I don't know any of the other Spotify. I I don't know of any other podcast players, to be honest, because I just use Downcast and Spotify. But if you're listening to this podcast somewhere else, we'd be we'd love to know. Uh just out of curiosity. Hey, today we're going to talk about this is a kind of a ridiculous headline, but it happens to be true. In uh today's episode, we're going to talk about how you can convert uh your sales calls. Well, kind of bit of a bait and switchy, but how you can convert clients at 85%. And uh I'm very pleased to have with me, and I can see in the green room he's just taking his seat. I'm very pleased to have back with me on the agency hour today my good friend. Get ready, ladies and gentlemen. It is, of course, Pete Crispy Butter Perry. How are you, my brother from another from New York?
SPEAKER_02Hey man, I missed you.
SPEAKER_00It's been a while. Welcome back. The show hasn't been quite the same without you. In fact, I think our listenership is up, engagement is up. I think the overall quality of the show has lifted dramatically since you took a back seat. And now you're back just to uh settle the averages. What's going on? What have you been up to?
SPEAKER_02Oh, not much. Coaching my butt off and uh dealing with all kinds of things like that. But um yeah, you know it's summer here, so and it's uh evening. It's evening for me, so it's uh I don't like to work life balance.
SPEAKER_00Haven't you booked another trip overseas?
SPEAKER_02I we've I've booked like four flights recently.
SPEAKER_03One to San Diego, uh-huh, which we can talk about.
SPEAKER_02Uh one to Orlando, one to North Carolina, and also, yes, one to Italy.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say those those three, just for your geographical uh knowledge, those first three flights aren't overseas. San Diego, Orlando, they're not overseas. Uh you might have to fly over a body of water to get there, but they're not overseas. And uh, where are you going? Sorry, where are you going? Was it with the full hunting? You're going to Italy again.
SPEAKER_02Italy again, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic.
SPEAKER_02My wife's not trying to trying to kind of get in the habit of going to Italy every 18 months or so.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I cannot get my head around getting on a plane and flying overseas. I'm about to do it in a few months, which we'll talk about in a second, but I can't get my head around it, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's been so long. It's so much different for you guys. Like we like kind of expect like we're we're beyond that now. And like, you know, I'm not too worried about monkeypox.
SPEAKER_00I'm not worried about monkeypox either. And uh I'm more worried about getting a cold these days than anything. Um uh so yes, we should announce, if we haven't already, that in September this year, 2022, the second week of September, we will be in San Diego for Mavcon, which is our event that we run three times a year for our Mavericks Club members. Uh it is live. We're doing it in person. It's live in person again in a hotel in uh San Diego, at the I think it's at the Spring Hill Suites in uh uh waterfront, Spring Hill Suites uh in San Diego, which I'm super excited about. Uh when were do you remember we we were there last? What was it, February 2020?
SPEAKER_02It was February 2020. That's when we first met our today's guest. Which we haven't announced who he is yet, but that's when we first met him. And uh that was the last time. Well, that was the last time I got to see you, my friend. But that was the last time we were ever all together. And uh it was a great venue, and we're going back to the same venue.
SPEAKER_00Yep, it is a great venue, it was a great event. Uh we had a bunch of guest speakers there that uh that week. We had Chris Lemmer, we had um Chris Martinez from Dude Agency, we had Dana Molstaff from Boss Mom. Uh, I'm sure I've forgotten someone, uh, but though it'll come back to me. We had a bunch of great speakers.
SPEAKER_02We coaches met today and a tentative um not theme for it, but one of the one of the main topics, maybe one of the days of the two days, um uh is filling the top of your funnel.
SPEAKER_03Ooh.
SPEAKER_02So we we're there's probably eight to ten different legitimate ways to do that, and we're gonna try to have somebody speaking on every one of those different ways.
SPEAKER_00Great. And of course, I'm gonna host a session about the illegitimate ways to fill the top of the funnel. That's my specialty. Yes. Grey hat and black hat is my middle name, ladies and gentlemen. Um excellent. So this is very exciting. Yes, Sheila Heard's got a great way to fill the top of the funnel. It's called dressing up as an astronaut. True story. Uh when you ever speak to Sheila Heard, ask her why she sends her business partner out dressed up as an astronaut to true story.
SPEAKER_02I need to know. I don't know that story.
SPEAKER_00It's very funny. I've seen the photos. Uh now today now here's so let's talk about let's talk about top of funnel, and let's talk about what happens when people come into the top of the funnel. Because typically speaking, I've said this a hundred times, I think, in various platforms, in coaching calls, in trainings on the agency out. We're gonna say it again, is that the typical process to close a new client for a web design agency or SEO agency or digital marketing agency is someone puts their hand up and says that they're potentially interested in in looking at what it is you do, you optimistically jump on a call with them to kind of try and figure out if they're a good fit, you kind of fumble your way through it. And the in fact the success of that first call is measured by whether or not they ask you for a proposal. If they ask you for a proposal off that first call, then you think, great, this is looking good. Well, I've got some momentum, we're bonded, we like each other, they potentially are trusting me enough to want to work with me and they want a proposal to nut out the details, which is fair enough. And that makes perfect sense because that's been the business model for years, right? Uh it's also, in my opinion, completely broken and it takes way too long, and your conversion rate if you're really good, your conversion rate might be fifteen or twenty percent, or if you're you know, maybe thirty percent of those people that you talk to when you send a proposal actually end up, you know, buying something from you. So what we've been working on over the last couple of years is a way to first of all shorten the sales cycle, acquire clients faster, and increase that conversion rate. And every now and then we put something out into the world, and it's remarkable to see someone pick it up and run with it and augment it and tweak it and turn it into something that is no longer recognizable, and just to knock it out of the park. And one of those people that we talk about a lot here on the show is actually joining us for the first time as a guest here on the Agency Hour. And so, ladies and gentlemen, I'd please like you to welcome to the Agency Hour all the way from Williamsport, Tennessee, from Mule Town Digital, Adam Silverman. Hey, brother! How's it going? Oh, doing good. We're all the more better for having you on the show. We we talk about you just about every week on the show, so we thought we'd better get you on so that you can set us straight and let us know what's actually going on. So hey, listen, for those that don't know, just give us the too long didn't read version of who's Adam Silverman, what do you do and why you're here?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the too long didn't read version is I was a professional musician for uh quite a long time, about 15 years out of Nashville. Uh I was learning web development while I was traveling, got tired of traveling, decided to uh stop doing that, opened an agency uh not very long after I opened it, ended up in San Diego where I met you guys. That's pretty much it.
SPEAKER_00And the and the rest is history. So there's an interesting why the I think there's an interesting sidebar here. Why did you want to stop traveling as a professional drummer?
SPEAKER_06Um, I got to the well, one, I was burned out because I was gone like almost 300 days a year, so I was just exhausted. Um, and I was starting to not like playing music as much because it was just wearing me down. Um, and then I also uh during that time met my wife, and she had an eight-year-old uh son, and so he became my stepson, and we were wanting to have other kids, and I just got where I didn't want to leave home, so I was like, I don't I don't want to be gone for you know 14 days, like I just didn't want to do it anymore. So um it was just a logical pivot for me um to just you know just be able to stop traveling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, love it. It's funny, isn't it, as you get older, your priorities change? Like a lot of people would think, dude, you live in the dream, you're a professional drummer, you're on tour the whole time, you're just like rock and roll. But it's funny as you get a bit older, and particularly when kids come along, in whatever shape or form that happens, it your priorities start to change. Uh, was it hard for you to kind of was it hard for you to let go of the the music thing, or did you have you since rediscovered it that you're not sort of grinding it out so much?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think like I've definitely rediscovered it to a degree. Like I still get hired a lot to do session work. So I built a studio out of our like off of our farm. I've got my own like space there. Um, and so like once I opened that up, and it's interesting, like when you're a musician, you can't afford to buy the gear, right? Then you get to the place where like people start giving you the gear, but then you need more gear, and it's more expensive and the electronics and like this does afford me the ability to build out my studio and do all the things that I want to do. So now I kind of have that running on the side, but it's on my terms. I don't I don't have to take a section, I don't want it that like looks like it's gonna be horrible. I can just say no. So there's just a lot of freedom in there now.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Uh, just getting a little a couple of glitches with internet. Is that me? Is that on my end?
SPEAKER_02Or it was on Adam's end, I think.
SPEAKER_00Okay, cool, no worries. Sorry. Um so just bear with us there. That's all good. Um, so so you start the agency. Uh so how do you how did that happen? Did you you you sort of learn how to build websites? How did you get your first handful of clients?
SPEAKER_06Um, I was mostly uh working for other agencies, and so I was doing development work, and that's kind of how I started the business. Um, and then people started asking me for like more than just that, and and I started thinking, you know, I could probably do more than just the the dev side. And so I hired a designer and then a project manager, and then it just started opening up from there.
SPEAKER_00And why why web design? Just just let this just or why web dev? Just take a step back. You're a professional drummer. How did you first what was the first moment where you went? I think I can write some code that reflects as a website in a browser, and I think I might be able to get paid to do this. When was that moment?
SPEAKER_06Ah, so while I was touring, um, I got a job when I was home uh working part-time for a web hosting company in Tennessee. And so I was a customer service rep there, and I didn't really know anything. I didn't even have a computer, like I knew nothing about the internet. Um, and I just started like they were like, if you're not answering calls, here's a stack of books. And I landed at the time on like a you know, XHTML and CSS2, probably, you know, book. And it was like, I just I enjoyed it. And so I started doing this for their customers, like with their permission, of course. You know, I was working through the company for their customers, fixing things that normally a hosting company would not fix. It's like I can't get this button to work. It's like I'd go in there and we'd bill them to fix it, and they split that money with me. And so I kind of started developing that skill set on the job, and then clients from there started hiring me outside of there. Um, again, the owner was like all for it. He was like, please just do this. When the hosting company shut down, all those clients had nowhere to go. And so I was given permission to reach out, and I took about 15, 20 clients straight out of there into a freelancer gig, and that's how I got started.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's a that's a pretty pretty nice platform to launch from. Uh, and then cast your mind back to before you joined Maverick's Club in February 2020. What was your typical process like when someone put their hand up and said, Hey, we're interested in working with you guys? What is what did that process look like?
SPEAKER_06Wow, man, it didn't look good. It was it was a mess. I mean, most of the time um it was just like me trying to figure out what they needed, right? And I just spent a lot of time going, like, well, do you really need that? Or what if you need this? And I really didn't know what I was doing. So it was like, for me, I looked at those first probably 20, 30 calls, like, I have no idea how this is gonna go. Um, fortunately, a lot of those people had already worked with me as a dev, and so it wasn't a big stretch for them to now have designs done. Like I said, hey, I can I have a designer now, and people went, Oh, I want something done. So they weren't really that hard from a you know, like a complexity standpoint. It was just I didn't know what I was trying to get them to do, right? So it's like I get off the call and go, uh, how many hours is it gonna take to do this thing and all hourly billing or a dev? That's all that you know, you know. So that it was mostly me trying to figure out the hours and then sending a proposal for those hours. And you know, it was it was definitely not efficient at all.
SPEAKER_00And uh what what was the what was the conversation like once you submitted a proposal? How did you scope out the budget? Was there sticker shock once you put the proposal in? How many of those were converting? Just kind of walk us through what what what what that looked like.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, like I do recall there being a good bit of sticker shock of people going, whoa, like you know, you're charging, you know, five, ten grand or whatever for a site, you know, why? And um, there was a lot of like pushback against that. Um, you know, yeah, I I I can't really remember the close rate was probably actually okay, um, just because I already knew so many of the people. But the first like couple of organic people that came in, I remember just like constantly worrying that I was overpricing and like I wanted to help everyone, so I didn't want to, you know, push people off by like overpricing the services or making them like I had this weird thing in my brain where I would make them feel bad if they couldn't afford to work with me. And so I would really like struggle with you know, I was taking underpaid projects and you know, I was doing the whole thing that probably everybody does, you know. It was it was definitely strugglesome all the way around.
SPEAKER_00So tell me, when you when you joined Mavericks Club, I remember describing, and I and I I know we've spoken about this, so I know I'm allowed to say this, but I remember describing you like you were a rabbit in the headlights when you came out to San Diego. You were like, I need to do something. I'm kind of overwhelmed, I'm not exactly sure what to do next. There's a lot of people in this room, you're very welcoming, but I'm kind of freaked out. Like, uh, what should I do next? And at some point you decided that you were gonna grow a team, right? You why why did you decide to do that and not just do everything yourself?
SPEAKER_06Man, I I think it was because I knew from being it was from being a freelancer for so long, like you just run out of runway where it's like I don't know what else to create. And like I didn't know anything about web design or web copy. I didn't know what a care plan was. Like, I had no idea what any of these things were or what I was doing. I had just been taking care of people's websites for a long time, and I was trying to, I had an opportunity to build a development business. Like I was gonna just build a white label dev company, and the reason I didn't do it was because I wanted to be a part of their business growth and not just the tech side. And so after working on the tech side for so long, I decided I really wanted to make that pivot. And I felt like I wanted that teamwork thing to drive it. And I also knew that I wanted to build a business eventually that I did not have to physically run, like that I could passively run a company that was always kind of on the list of what I wanted. Um, and so yeah, it just felt like the only possible, you know, the only way to do that was to build a team. So that's why I wanted to do it.
SPEAKER_00And I'm I'm kind of setting us up here because I know the story here that eventually, you know, you get to a point where you have someone doing most of the other things and that the sales process is the last thing that you built yourself out of, which we'll get to in a minute. Um, who was the first, but before we get there, who was the first person that you hired?
SPEAKER_06Um, my first hire was our designer, Leah. Um, she had worked with me at another agency where I was a contractor, like I was basically a fractional CTO at their agency, and I worked with her on the design side, and that agency started kind of winding down, and and they weren't really taking on new clients, and she was ready to do something new. And so I hired her. She was pretty much like maybe a year out of college at the time. She was my first hire, and then I so I would sell the thing, hand it off to her. Um, we did the whole thing where we gather the copy from the client, she'd do the designs, I would build them, and then we'd ship them out and we go to the next one. Um, and so it quickly became it was quickly I realized I can't manage this project. Like there was there was no way for me to sell it, manage it, build it, and export it. And so the next thing I did was hired a project manager because I felt very comfortable with you know, with delivering. You know, I I knew I could build whatever they made. So it was just like I kept hiring things away from my strength set, like the the The hardest thing for me to do, I hired out. And I remember very, very early in Mavericks, I was listening to we, it was like the cadets call or something back then, like where I think it was Pete and Christina that were talking about, but they were saying, like, write down the things that you suck at. Like, what do you hate doing? And get rid of those things first. And I was like, oh, I hate project management. So it was like it was a really easy like split for me to go, yeah, I'm gonna bring in somebody to manage these projects. And now, of course, you know, fast forward three years, like he's the Chris is my general manager, Leah is my creative lead. And yeah, like you said, I don't, I'm out of sales as well now. So I'm pretty much just like the product guy, and you know, the you know, I come in and talk to the clients about their strategy sometimes when I'm needed, and otherwise I am not super day-to-day in the company, which is awesome.
SPEAKER_00Uh, just a shout out to Pete, who's got this great training in Mavericks Club called the org chart builder that helps you build out your future-facing org chart and then identify which roles to hire uh in in which order. Um so you so Leah's designing, you're developing, you hire a project manager. At what point do you start to think about uh getting uh in the weeds a little quicker with the client rather than kind of because at this point you're still selling a project and scoping out how you you think it's gonna take this long, so therefore we're gonna charge this much and kind of hoping that there's gonna be some profit at the end of it. At what point do you go, you know what, this just isn't what what was the inflection point that made you think I need to fix this process to make sure that we're getting everything we need from the client before we give them a proposal or a or an accurate quote. What was missing or what was broken that caused you to dig in and fix that?
SPEAKER_06Uh that was the uh enabling of e-commerce. Um, as soon as we started selling e-commerce and building an e-commerce, um, I immediately was like, I'm making a huge mistake here. Um, and it was because we at the time it was related to the project specs, right? We were really having trouble going, well, how many products is this thing? And what categories do we have, and what's our shipping look like, and how are you gonna fulfill? And we started asking all these questions, and it just would turn out the client had literally no clue, right? They just are going, I don't know. I just I thought I'd uh you know, make t-shirts and sell them online. I have no idea how I'm gonna deliver them. And so what started as product specs um started becoming like we've got to figure this out before we can actually do it. So the tech side is what tipped me to it, but I quickly learned that that could be applied just as equally to a business that says, you know, hey, we're a landscaping company and we've got, you know, we're doing okay in this 15 mile radius, but we want to go out wider, right? Well, the same exact principle comes in like, how many GMDs are we? And how many website properties need SEOs on? And are we running ads? And it just would like to turn into all these questions that I was really trying to keep my triage calls down to 15 to 20 minutes, and there was no way, like I'd be on the phone with a client for an hour, hour and a half, whatever. And it's like I still didn't have all the data, right? Like I only knew what I knew. The devs that I had hired had different questions, the designers had different questions. Like, I go to talk to Simon, he has different questions about how we're gonna drive traffic, and all of a sudden, it's like there's I think it was really when I realized that it wasn't my mind only that the client needed. It was they needed my team to speak into their individual areas of their presence. And when I figured that out, I went, I can't do this, right? Because I started adding up how much does it cost me to put, you know, an SEO lead on a call, a tech lead, a design lead, like a content person. How long is this, you know, this is costing me, you know, three, four hundred bucks minimally to have this call. And I just, it was like one of those moments of going, I I gotta stop doing this, right? So I either have to stop doing this and just fire off proposals that I have no clue what the end result's gonna be, or I have to start getting paid to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00And that's a big shift in the way that everyone does things, right? The way, like the way that everyone does things in our industry is you you ask questions, you give away some ideas for free, you try and impress the client enough with your experience and your knowledge that they then hire you to do the thing. And then when they've hired you to do the thing and they say, send me a proposal, you put in your best guess at the pricing, right? How did you manage like what what were you thinking? What was your thought pattern when you said, Okay, I need to start charging for this discovery process? Were you nervous that clients were going to push back, or how did you kind of figure out the pricing of it and how did you start to present it in a way that you weren't getting lots of pushback from clients?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so the the very first one of these that I did was uh I won't say the client's name, but they were an e-commerce client, and they they approached me and said, Hey, we want you to participate in this RFP. They're a very large nonprofit in Nashville. And they're like, Why don't you do this RFP? They were basically looking for a black sheep agency that wasn't in Nashville, and we were small enough to kind of fit that bill, but they also had to get you know all these other statements of work and all this stuff. Well, I flipped it on them and they sent me their RFP, and I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Like, how are you gonna do this and this and this? And I started asking all these questions in email, and they said, We don't know yet, like we're just kind of looking on the gifts of price. I was like, Yeah, I don't have time to do that. Like, I can't do that. It's gonna this is gonna take me, you know, 15 hours to figure out what you guys need. I can't do that. I said, but I'll tell you what I can do is I can charge you 1500 bucks and I can get on a call with you and we can figure all this out. And then when we do, you'll actually have accurate information. You can go RFP this to whoever you want, but I won't, I don't want to do that. And I think they were just like, You don't you what? Like, you know, what do you mean you're not gonna do the RFP? I'm like, I don't want to do the RFP, but I will help you figure this out. And it was like, we got done figuring the thing out, and they never submitted the RFP. They just they went, well, we're not gonna do an RFP now because the board of directors has just decided that since you made the plan and you already gave us an estimate to do the plan, like we may as well just have you like, why would we RFP this? Because it doesn't make any sense. And I so we ended up winning what ended up being close to a $40,000 project was RFP with no RFP. And on top of that, they've been a retainer client now for almost a year. So it's like and we're getting ready to go into some other services with them as well. So it was it'll probably equate to be about a hundred and fifty thousand dollar win that I got off of saying, no, I don't want to do this free process where I give you all my IP and you take it, and the cheapest agency gets the, you know, wins the rings the bell. Like I just didn't want to do it. And I knew that's what it was gonna, that's always what an RFP is. Like they always say they're not gonna do that, but it's exactly what they're gonna look at the prices and go, this one's the second from the lowest, so we'll pick that one. I mean, so you're just you're wasting all this time and gambling, and at the end of the day, it's likely that agency doesn't know any different. They're you know, their RFP, the the agency that's gonna provide that service is gonna be asking the client what they want. And the answer is the client has no freaking clue, they don't know. And so it was like it was just this realization that the position of power is not always the person with the money, it's the person with the need. They had a much greater need than I had. Like, I didn't need their project, they really needed this thing to work, and so I just leveraged that, you know, in a way where I said, I'm not gonna do what you're asking because I don't think it's smart. And they were like, Well, wait, what? Like, what do you mean? Everyone does this, and I'm like, Yeah, we don't we don't participate. So it was definitely uh after that, I went, huh, like this is there's definitely something to doing this, and so we've done different versions of it. We've scaled it back for um you know, really small business, like a tiny business. Sometimes we'll do it for like 250 bucks, right? It doesn't have to be like a you know uh this massive thing, it's just getting them to take a step with us, put a little skin in the game, and then let our team figure out what they need, and then from there, most of the time we end up going into some sort of project. So it's it's it was it's like a game changer, but it all stemmed out of just feeling like what those guys what they were asking for, I just could not like morally give them because I knew everything in that RFP list was you know crap. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there is so much to unpack here, man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're doing so many things right there. Like you're you're building trust, right? Because it's all about trust. So you're you're proving to them that you know what the hell you're talking about and you're building trust. You're probably or possibly expanding the project beyond the borders that they thought they were, you know, you're you're adding things to the project because you're discovering where they really need to be. And the my favorite part of the entire thing is you're getting paid to do the sales process. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And it's it carries a lot of weight too now that I'm not the salesperson, right? So when Teresa gets on a call with a client that says, Hey, we're building this snow removal company up in you know, Canada, and you know, they want to, you know, expand their business, she sells that track builder, but then that meeting with the client is head of development, head of design, head of strategy, head of content. And so immediately that person who in a one-on-one with the salesperson, they have all the power. Now they've walked into a room with people that know a thousand times more than they do about all of this, and immediately they go backwards going, Whoa, I thought I knew what I wanted, but I have no idea. So I'm just gonna tell you about my business and answer all your questions, and it immediately changes the power. That they don't they're now going, Oh crap. Like I just walked into a room with all the sledgehammers, and I I thought I was gonna control this, and they quickly figure out they just can't, like they don't know enough, so they start going away from iTunes into well, what do you guys think I should do? And as soon as that pivot happens, it's like it's just a totally different working relationship with the client. Now it's not, I demand this, it's what do you guys want to do to solve this problem? Which is if it's more of a team effort, you know, then it's like it feels like they're winning the whole process away. And hey, we've had some people that have gone through track builder that didn't sign, right? They took our plan and went to someone really cheap and they executed. It happens. Um, but I never feel bad about it because we get paid to figure it out. Like if it's not a good fit for them, I'd rather them not work with us, right? Like I'd rather them just walk away. So it really gives us a chance to vet those clients too and sort of go, does this feel right? You know, is is this a good is this going to be good for all of us? And um, I had a client in a track builder recently where I told them I didn't think it was a good fit, and they spent an hour on the phone selling me on working with them. Like it was a completely, I was like, this company is huge. And it's just yeah, it was just crazy. I'm like, is he he's literally telling me right now all the reasons why I should work with him? He increased his own budget by 15 grand on a call. He set his own monthly retainer several thousand dollars higher than I thought he needed. And he just he just kept telling me how we needed to work together. And I was like, Well, I guess we do. Like, I guess I was wrong. Like, you know, I I just it's it's just so weird how it shifts the way they look at your bit, you know, your team and what you do.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a it's a this is what I love about positioning is that you know the first of all, a couple of things for people who are listening. RFP stands for request for proposal for those uh who don't know, and track builder is Adam's version of paid discovery. That's his productized version of paid discovery. Other people run track builder, by the way. Adam doesn't do the track builder, and he now doesn't sell the track builder. He was until recently, and now Teresa is selling the track builder. So, technically speaking, a client could come into Milltown Digital, get on a call with someone, be sold track builder, go through the track builder process, and then and then ascend into a larger project, and Adam wouldn't meet them. He wouldn't even know who they are. Sometimes he comes in and talks a little bit about strategy and does the dog and pony show just to add a bit of trust and a bit of credibility, but uh sometimes he doesn't even know who they are, right? Um what what you've done here also is what Orin Claff talks about framing and prizing. So you make Mule Town Digital the prize rather than the client the prize, just because the client has the money doesn't mean they're the prize. And I think that's what a lot of people miss is because they have the money, we think they're the prize, and we need to do whatever they say so that they give us the money, right? Um one thing I want to ask is how like you obviously had nothing to lose. When the first big nonprofit came in and said they want to do e-commerce, you had nothing to lose, and so except fifteen hours of unpaid time, right? That was that was just a you made a decision. It was just a choice. It was simply a choice to not waste 15 hours of your unpaid time in the hope that you would then get a spot in the lineup. I've always thought of an RFP as a lineup. We know who's guilty, we just need some other blokes who look similar to come in and fat out the lineup, but none of you are going to jail because we know who did it, right? That's what an RFP is. We know who we're gonna hire, we just need to submit three other quotes to the board, so it looks like we've done our due diligence. They're a complete waste of time, in in my opinion. Um I did one once and then never did another one again. Um the uh so so how so you make that choice. Was it just out of pure frustration that you made that decision to go, you know what, I don't care, like I just don't need this project, I don't care. I'm like, or did you have enough work on that it was like, well, I don't really need the money, so it's no big deal if this doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_06It was kind of around that. It was a it was I was in place where like I didn't need this whole side to close, like I didn't need that sale. Um, and so it was like I just remember thinking, boy, if I screw this up on the south side of this proposal, we're gonna be eating it for a year, right? It was just it was just like it was just the realization of how bad this could go if we don't get this right. And to be honest, I started thinking about like, yeah, it's like it's a time waste, right? Like now I'm sitting here figuring this thing out for these people that don't know what they need, they don't know what they want. I'm figuring it out for them, and it doesn't make sense. And to be completely honest, it's not helping them. Like me doing an RFP did not serve them, but having a technical discovery did, because they started figuring out things like we're gonna have to hire somebody on to do this, right? I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're gonna have to deal with taxes, you're gonna have to figure out how you're gonna get these people to ship these things. Like it it opened up their eyes to the fact that they did not have the answers that they thought they had. And as soon as they saw that, I think they would have had tremendous value in going through that. Their project would have been more successful, even if they went RFP and we didn't get it. I'm confident it would have been a better project for them. And so it was the feeling that I was like by just jumping into RFP, I was like, I'm just wasting their time. Like it was like I'm not helping. And so I always like feel like in sales, it's like, is this gonna help them? If the answer is no, then I'm wasting my time and their time. Then I start going, can I help them for free? And how much can I do? Like some of these small, but somebody asked on here uh about Peter asked about like how I base the pricing. It's completely based typically on either how difficult this thing looks, like if their project looks going to be extremely complex, like there's tech and API components, and then there's a search engine component. Like if it's big, we've gone up, I think the highest one we've done is over six grand, and that went all the way through like a wireframing process. Um, if it's a little tiny business and we're talking about, you know, foot and ankle, it's like all I'm trying to do is get to their site map, what are the pages they need? How complex is the copy gonna be? And then ultimately, like that's what we're trying to do internally. What we're trying to do externally is get them to think about their website differently. So it's a it kind of is like an educational piece for the client, as well as get that you know, them getting the the manual that we give them back that tells them what they you know should do. So it's it's really the salesperson's call on how how much she thinks she needs in order to serve the client appropriately.
SPEAKER_00I love this. Is that there's a real attitude of uh service here to the client. Like uh, you know, if I can't like the problem with RFPs, and not to spend too much time here, but the problem with RFPs is that they don't know the questions that they should be asking. Yeah, right. If they did, they wouldn't need to hire a bloody agency because they would have figured it out by now. So the best RFP, in fact, if the only way to use RFPs, I think, in an agency is to offer a service where you help people write an RFP. Right? You help government or non-profits or large corporate write the RFP, which they then submit. And I tell you something, whoever the if you help someone write the RFP, you will get the project 100% of the time, because you know more about this project now than anyone, and they'll that's how you win RFPs, is you actually say, well, uh right, if you guys have got an RFP, the only RFPs we submit are ones that where we've helped you write the RFP because 90% of the time you guys don't know the questions that you should be asking. I love the fact that you didn't You weren't afraid to walk away and say no to this opportunity, and also your because your approach was I'm not doing them any favours by submitting this RFP because there are all these unanswered questions, there are all these gaps in there are all these exactly what James Mergatroid says, RFPs always boilerplate and speak to a vague assumption of what the problem might be. Exactly. Yeah, I love it. Um and uh for James, if you're paying attention, there's now actually four. James knows what I'm talking about. Anyway. This will be a thing that happens now. So um uh see who plays along. Um Adam's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Uh so you build track builder, you build this productised uh paid discovery. You then give it to the team and the team start running it. What happens to your conversion rate from people first of all I'm gonna tee you up here because I know it's easier to sell a paid discovery product for $1,500 to a complete stranger than it is to sell a $15,000 website to a complete stranger, right? So how does selling paid discovery and and you were the one that said to me, hey dude, this sales process you've you've taught us is great, but I've shortened it because I'm just selling paid discovery straight off a triage call. Is that just because you're in you're impatient?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was just like uh by the time I got through talking to them for you know for 15 minutes, it's like, yeah, I already know where this is going, right? Like it's like I have done so many of these calls now that I just started going, okay, I'm I know that you'd have no idea what you're trying to actually do. You don't know where you're gonna get traffic from. You have all you know is you want this website that you think is ugly now to look better. And what you're missing is what the crap are you gonna do with the thing once you have it? They just they just didn't know. And so it it was it was really one of those situations where I just got to the point of going, I'd rather have a 30-minute call with them and sell them something and do a triage, then wait and then book. And I just didn't want to go through all that. It was just faster for me to be able to call it on that triage and say, yes, I want to send them to a paid discovery, or no, I don't want to work with this client, or this is so obvious that I know we're looking at a 6,000 or 8,000 or 12, whatever. If I knew it, I'd just call it on the call and say, this is what it's gonna be. But it took having like almost too much work, right? Like when you know you need 30 grand to clear your books and you have 50, it gets really easy to start making those kind of calls because it's like, well, I don't need to close anything. Like, I don't, it's a so it was for me, I was just in that position where I could make that move. And I thought it was gonna impact sales negatively, but to your point, it did not. If if most of the time, probably about 75% of them went, if we sent them a paid you know track builder, they would agree to it almost always. And of those, we've probably done at least 10 or 15 of them now in the last year. And of those, we've only lost one that didn't come in. And so it's like the conversion rate is so high because by the time we're done with that call and we deliver them our little loom with their PDF and we've gone through it all, they're going, well, like great. And in that, we also tell them this is what it would take for us to execute this. Like, this is the cost. Instead of them saying, no, if the budget's too high or they can't figure it out, they would come back and say things like, um, can you do this monthly? Like, can we break it into monthlies instead of a project price? Or I know you're saying this needs to be like 12 grand. I literally only have 10. What can we take out to make it work? Like it just changed from us bidding for the job to them coming back and saying, Look, we want to work on this. This is legitimate. They trusted us, right? So they would tell us like this is where we legitimately are. This is all the budget I can get. What needs to be moved around so we can do it. And so it just it's like a totally different response than the send the proposal, wait for crickets, follow up two weeks later. Like it requires almost no follow-up. Like if you just send the thing off, and a couple days later, typically, they've watched the video and they've looked at it, they've maybe made some comments on the PDF, and then before you know it, it's like they're saying, Hey, I'm ready to sign, or can we like adjust we decided we do want you to do a logo? Can you put that in there? It's like, and it's just it's really a different, um, a different world.
SPEAKER_00Whole different conversation, isn't it? And so to be clear, the headline for this episode of the agency, our ladies and gentlemen, is Adam Silverman is converting clients who buy Track Builder, which is his paid discovery, right? Converting those clients into a larger project at 85 to 90 percent of the clients that go through that paid discovery process are then becoming clients who are investing more and more with Milletown Digital to get the solution that they need. Um what I love about this as well is that a confused mind does nothing, right? So when you s when you if you if even if you have a great sales process with someone, even if you've been through one of our trainings and you've got your sales process dialed in, uh you're still trying to pitch maybe a $15,000 project to a client that you've known for maybe two or three weeks, and there's lots of detail in there that they're not sure about, they get a little bit confused, which is why they don't pull the trigger. It's not always pricing that people don't pull the trigger, right? It's it's it can be timing and it can also be I just don't really understand what I'm getting for my 15 grand. The the paid discovery just smooths that process out. And what I love about this is if you give people one option when they come into your world, if you're like, well, the only way you can work with us is to go through a paid discovery. I don't care who you are or what you're doing or what the project is or how big the budget is or what the complexity is, the only way to work with us, to start with us, is to go through this paid discovery, call it don't call it paid discovery, call it something sexier, and it's X amount, then there's no confusion. They've got one choice to make. We want to work with Milltown Digital, we've got to do track builder. If we don't, if we don't want to do track builder, we don't want to follow their process, we don't work with them. And this is if you look at every professional service, anyone in the medical industry, banks, lawyers, accountants, they've all got that process dialed in. They dictate the terms of engagement. You don't get the opportunity to tell them how you're gonna engage with them. If you want to engage them, you have to follow their process.
SPEAKER_02And I I think that's for some reason, I don't know why, but for some reason it's really hard for our audience to understand that. Why like why is that? Is it because we all started basically as freelancers and like we have this scarcity mindset and this you know, like what is it about that concept? Because we're we are victims to it, not victims, but we are the on the other end of it often. So why are we?
SPEAKER_00We are as consumers, we fall into other people's process all the time, right? But as business owners and service providers, we're reluctant to dial that process in. And I think it's because back to what Aaron Claff talks about in Pitch Anything is uh we see the client as the prize because they have the money. What we forget, and also because we live in this echo chamber of Facebook groups where we're all doing the same thing, what happens is it it it alters your your world view and you think that everyone knows how to do what you do because everyone you talk to most of the day online knows how to do what you do, right? And we're comparing strategies and tactics, and we're showing each other our websites and we're showing each other the fancy results we're getting for clients. We're like, well, everyone knows how to do this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Everyone in our industry knows how to do this, but that's like less than 0.1 of a percent of the population of the world. Let me let me also just give you this as proof. You go to any of the search tools, like you go to BuzzFeed or any of those uh search tools which kind of shows you the kinds of topics that are getting shared on social media and you type in anything to do with WordPress or plug-in or you know, GitHub or anything technical or anything design related, user experience, user interface, uh that gets shared maybe three times a month on social media versus the Kardashians that get shared three times a second. Right? So to put it into some kind of perspective, what it is we do, 99.99999% of the people on the planet don't know how to do what we do. So we are the prize, not them just because they've got the money, right? Because just because they've got the money doesn't mean it's profitable money that they've got. We are the prize, and I think it's important to remind ourselves of that on a daily basis. You have the skills, you have the solution here, you are the prize, therefore you have the opportunity to dictate the terms of engagement. You don't have to follow the client's process, and I guarantee you they don't have a process, and if they do, it's not a good one. So get them to follow your process because at least you've got one. Um couple of questions here, I think uh James Mergatros is curious what has or hasn't worked in positioning paid discovery early? If you could go back and talk to uh yourself a year ago and give yourself a bit of a a you know a a 30-second lesson on how to do this and how to set this up in the agency, what would you do? Like what's the what's a couple of the key lessons that you've learned over the last year or so doing this?
SPEAKER_06I mean, I think like one of the big ones is it is better there's strength and numbers on these calls. Um, because if it's like flip the round where it's just you on this call. I mean, and if you're if you're a solo entrepreneur or you're you're like, you know, you're the primary on on your projects, and then you have a team that just does the work, it's kind of different. Um, with our agency, the the main thing I learned quickly was if they're gonna be working with John, Leah, Teresa, like if that's who they're gonna work with on their project, why would I tell them what they need to do? Right? Like it immediately disempowers my team and makes me the point person. Like, I can't, once you're that person, it's really hard to get out of being that person. So I would go back and tell myself, if you want to be that person, do this by yourself. If you don't, then have someone else be there with you that can also speak into their project. That way, when the transition occurs, that you're not the person calling the shots, it's really a lot easier for you to exit out of that conversation. Um, so that would that would be like one big lesson. Um, and then you know, the other side of it is if a client, I'll say this. If a client says no to doing a two, three, four, five hundred dollar thing, they're just price shopping. So you're going to either win that project because think about this. If you win that project, you are probably the cheapest person they could find, which should frighten you a little bit. Um, and then the second side of that is if they're not willing to spend money to figure out what they need to do, what are they gonna spend money? They're gonna have to spend anything, they're gonna get you to the website and they're gonna go. And that for me was just a waste of time. Like, if they're not gonna do anything other than redesign their site and be gone, I'd rather them go somewhere else because I don't have time to mess around with that. And I think I would tell three-year younger Adam, don't waste your time with those clients because every one of them that I've ever worked with has been in and out of our ecosystem. It's the ones that we spend the time to build a relationship with that stick around. They not only spend more money with us, but we're more effective for them, which builds our reviews, our case studies, it builds our referral, you know, our referral network. It just does everything positive for your business. Whereas working for bottom feeder clients, it just it just takes the life out of your business, and it really is not, it's not really what you want. You just think in the moment, I need this $3,000 or $5,000 thing, but you but it's you need it because you think you need it, I guess. You know, it's like I don't know the psychology there, but it feels like you don't really need that thing. You need you don't need that client. There's probably a better suited client for you, and you can use this to weed those people out early on so you don't have to get sucked into a six-month-long you know, project with someone that you're like, I don't like these people. So that can be hard to pick up in a 15-minute triage call, but spend an hour on Zoom with them, with your team. Your team will throw flags on the field if they're there because they're gonna be the ones dealing with them. So my team will immediately say, that person's gonna be a you know what, so let's increase our price, or or like the opposing, like it probably should be an eight thousand dollar project, but like we really like these people. Let's can we what can we do? It you know, you get both sides of that. So I think that's like what works, and and we know kind of what doesn't what doesn't work with these things. It's what doesn't work is if all the client can tell you is what they want you to do for them, right? Like if that's all they know, yeah, you're not gonna be able to extract enough on that discovery call to make it valuable. So you gotta be willing to keep asking them the same question a bunch of different ways if you're not getting an answer that that's gonna help.
SPEAKER_00Yep. It's like going to the doctor and and saying, Listen, doctor, um, I've done some research on Google and I think they have pleurcy. And the doctor says, Well, let me run the tests and let me come up with a diagnosis so that we prescribe the right medicine. Um, just gonna move a couple of things here on the desk to highlight. I think, James, we got to six, James. I think we got to six, uh, including empty beer bottles. So, for those of you who are listening to this podcast and have no idea what we're talking about, come and join the Digital Mavericks Facebook group, play along and see what we're talking about. We did, we got to six by the end of the show. We started with two, we got to six, including an empty beer bottle from the Heineken Brewery.
SPEAKER_02Uh, Adam Adam is sitting here and he still doesn't know what you're talking about. I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00Um so now the other thing I wanted to uh say here is that pay and I think you mentioned it, but I just want to reiterate this point. Paid discovery can help you dodge a bullet. It can help you actually. We had a Maverick recently do this: $1,500 for a uh paid discovery session a couple hours later, said, you know what, this has been super fun, but I don't want to work with a client because they're super disorganized, and if we were to work together, this would just drag on forever because this person just can't get their shit together, and there's no way they're gonna be able to deliver content or answer the question. So here's your plan, here's what I would do, but I'm not gonna do it. Just got paid to dodge a bullet, got paid for their time, it's super profitable. Move on, it's transactional, but that's okay. You don't have to spend six months trying to uh make that project profitable or keep that client happy. So uh it can definitely work on the other side of it. Um this is a great segue, ladies and gentlemen, because you do know, of course, that we are releasing our brand new training tomorrow, I believe. It is called the paid discovery method. Go to agencymavericks.com slash wait list to get on the wait list and be the first notified when we open the doors to our brand new training, the paid discovery method, which goes live tomorrow. I was going to share my screen here and give you a bit of a sneak peek into the actual list of uh trainings that are in the paid discovery, but I'm not gonna do that because we're out of time. But I will tell you a couple of things that we've done. We have uh the triage call. Obviously, you've heard uh uh Adam talk about that. We're gonna give you uh basically the script for the triage call with a little twist. We've added a thing called the triage hook, which is how to get people on the triage call, and then what we call the PDM pitch, the paid discovery method pitch, how to actually sell paid discovery off that first triage call. Of course, then we go through onboarding your client into paid discovery, all the workbooks and the slide deck and the and the and the PDFs and everything you need to run really professional paid discovery sessions, what to call paid discovery instead of calling it paid discovery. Of course, Adam calls it track builder. We've got a whole thing around uh some different ideas on how to turn it into a sexy product. Um and then also the checklist of of how to run that session and more importantly, how to then go back and prescribe, once you've done the discovery, how to then go back and prescribe your solution to the client and build out what we call a 12-month roadmap for that client so that they can see, hey, over the next 12 months, this is what we're going to be working on based on what we discovered during our our discovery session. Um and you essentially what you're doing is you're writing yourself a contract for the next 12 months to work with that client. Uh so super excited to be launching this tomorrow. It's called the pay discovery method. Agency mavericks.com slash wait list is where you go to be the first notified.
SPEAKER_02Um, and we're guessed an important question.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it is part of Mavericks, and of course, everything we do is part of Mavericks. So if you are in Mavericks Club, you will get it, of course, because every if you're in Mavericks Club, you get everything, including a complimentary ticket to Mavcon, San Diego, September 2022. Dude, I cannot wait. It's two and a half years. Two and a half years to be at me there, right?
SPEAKER_06Oh yeah, I I've already got the order for Talium so I can get on the airplane.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's right. You hate flying, don't you? Yeah, you don't like flying, yeah. The rock the rock star that doesn't like to fly.
SPEAKER_06Oh, I hate it, man. Yeah, yeah. Once once you're in a private plane, you don't like commercial anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's so bad. Yeah, exactly. Uh, it's super exciting. I cannot wait to be out in San Diego hanging out.
SPEAKER_02Uh so we need to we need to say that that other people other than Mavericks are gonna be allowed to come to this. That's right. You know, we that's right.
SPEAKER_00I I have to I have no idea how this works, by the way.
SPEAKER_02Um we don't tell Troy anything, but we don't know a certain number of people would be allowed to come to to it, and uh we'll we'll open up a wait list for that or a sign-up list for that pretty soon. Um yeah, you gotta be serious about wanting to do something with us, obviously. But you know we want to work with you, that's why we're there.
SPEAKER_00So if you want to come and if you want to come and kick the tires and check out what Mavericks Club is all about, uh email support at agencymavericks.com and ask them about Mavcon coming up in San Diego in September. It is the week after WordCamp. WordCamp US is September 9, 10, and 11, I think, or round about those dates, a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Um, and then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we go straight into Mavcon in San Diego. Uh the week after um uh WordCamp US. You also get to hang out with Adam Silverman, myself, Pete Perry, Johnny Flash, Christina Hawkins, and all the other Mavericks are gonna be there. Uh, it's gonna be super fun. So if you want to come along and kick the tires and check out what Mavericks Club is all about, as Pete said, you you've got to be serious about working with us. Um, but if you want to come and have a sneak peek, email support at agismavericks.com and the team will tell you how that happens because I have no freaking idea, but they have figured it out. Yes, Adam's got his hand up on a podcast. Excellent.
SPEAKER_06I'm just I'm just telling you, it will change. I went there going, I don't really know what in the world I'm doing here, and I have no idea like how this is gonna be helpful because I was so overwhelmed. But I mean, just to be two years later and basically like moved out of my business into a CEO role, like I would not have ever been able to do that without the help of Troy and Pete and the and all the other coaches, like it just completely changed the entire way that I look at my company. So even if you take out all the tangible things I got, the mindset change is what it's like life altering when you understand your business at a different, like when you can look at it from with the way the coaches look at your business, it's just it's it's life-changing. So if you if you're thinking about it like this is no promo for me, I'd love to see you there just to say hello. I give out free hugs, handshakes, but for real, like if you're if you're not sure what to do, it's it's it's probably what you need to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, awesome. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. And it's been a it's but your journey has been incredible to be a part of. I remember you joined Mavericks Club a month later, the world went into lockdown with COVID. Everyone shit the bed. You and I jumped on calls, we kind of figured it out. We were everyone was just kind of panicking, and you just dug in, man. You just dug in and took massive action and did the work. And that's what's most rewarding about working with you in Mavericks Club is uh is seeing the action that you take and the results that you get. So appreciate you, appreciate you coming on the agency hour and sharing your story here. And uh cannot wait to hang out again in September for Mavcon. Yeah, thank you all. All right, thanks, Pete Crispy Butter Perry. Thank you for playing along, ladies and gentlemen. Please uh send us some comments, subscribe to the podcast, share it with your friends, and join the Digital Mavericks Facebook group. And if you've got any feedback or you want to talk to us at all, just reach out, support at agencymaverics.com. We will see you again next week on the Agency Hour. Until then, I'm Troy Dean. Take care, have a great day. Bye for now.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the Agency Hour Podcast. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocketcast, Audible, and wherever you like to listen. You can catch all of the Agency Hour episodes on our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash agencymavericks. Or you can get involved. Check out our free Digital Mavericks Facebook group, where we broadcast these episodes live for our community every week, along with a ton of free training. We'll see you there.