The Agency Hour
The Agency Hour is for digital agency owners like you who want to start, grow and scale their businesses. It’s like hanging out with friends while getting a masterclass in how to tackle the most significant obstacles you’re facing as an entrepreneur.
The Agency Hour
Avoiding the time sink
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SPEAKER_00If you have a vision for the agency you want to build, then we want to help you build it. Welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast, brought to you by Agency Mavericks.
SPEAKER_01Hey ladies and gentlemen, there we go. I'll unmute the microphone. We're having all sorts of technical difficulties here today, but that's okay because my hair looks fantastic. I put a little bit of extra effort into it this morning, and it seemed like a good idea at the time. So hopefully uh the style will override the lack of substance that we've got going on here. My name is Troy Dean. Welcome to another episode of the Agency Hour Podcast. Now, we usually live stream this into our group, the Digital Mavericks Facebook group. However, I think the internet angels have been listening to us because we recently decided that we were going to start live streaming this onto our Facebook page. And so therefore, we hadn't made the decision to do it yet, but we'd been talking about it. And what happened yesterday is for some reason StreamYard decided that it just would not let us schedule a live stream into the group. It said, no, no, that's all over, you can't do that anymore. So we are now live streaming this episode onto the agency Mavericks Facebook page. Have no idea what that's going to mean for engagement or your experience as a listener, but we will find out. So please bear with us as we continue to experiment and iterate in an effort to try and produce engaging, educational, inspirational content for all you agency owners out there listening. If you are listening to this as a podcast, then congratulations. Thank you for finding us. We'd love to know how you found us. We think it's a miracle when people discover us and start consuming our content. We have no idea how it happens. So please let us know so we can do more of it. Subscribe, like, share, do all that kind of good stuff. And uh if you're not in the Digital Mavericks Facebook group, you should definitely come and join because it is awesome. It's full of agency owners. It's about 12,500 to 13,000 agency owners in there at the time of recording this episode. And they're all we're all helping each other grow our agency so that we can live more life and avoid burnout. And having said that, that's a nice segue to introduce today's guest, who also happens to be our platinum sponsor for Mavcon, which is coming up in a couple of weeks in San Diego. We'll talk more about that in a moment. But ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show, Akshat Chowdery from Blog Vault WP Remote. Akshat, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_03Hi, Troy. Uh, thank you for having me. Good to see you.
SPEAKER_01Absolute pleasure. It's good to finally connect. You and I have been playing messenger conversations for, I don't know, the last year or so. And uh it's good to finally now connect uh almost in real life and have you on the show. And we are going to meet up in real life in a couple of weeks in San Diego when you're out there for WordCamp US and also very kindly sponsoring our Mavcon event.
SPEAKER_03No, absolutely. Really looking forward to to seeing you in person and uh yeah, finally getting a chance to uh to hang out together. And uh the that hair is looking striking for show.
SPEAKER_01It is looking striking, isn't it? I did put a lot of effort into the and I must I must manage your expectations. I'm far better on camera and the podcast than I am in real life, so don't be disappointed when we meet in real life.
SPEAKER_03So I'm I'm not this blurry in real life, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01Excellent, I love it. Now, for those for those that don't know, I just want to talk a little bit about your journey before we talk about your company and your products. For those that don't know, what how did you get into this WordPress slash web agency space? What was your introduction into this world?
SPEAKER_03So, you know, uh I'm as much of an outsider to this space as you can imagine. Uh so I'm uh I'm an engineer. I used to work as a software developer for over uh for almost seven years. And uh then I noticed that uh someone on the internet had a broken website, uh actually broken blog. And I thought that's that's a problem which I can solve. And uh uh and that's how I got in. And frankly, I didn't even know what I was doing. Maybe even now I many times I feel I don't know what we are what we are doing. So so yeah, so that's how we that's how that's how we got started, and it's been a long, long journey since then. So it's been almost 12 years since we wrote the first line of code to solve the problem.
SPEAKER_01So so you so you started out doing services like uh as an agency, fixing people's websites, building websites, or did you just start out with the with a plug-in and product from day one?
SPEAKER_03No, so we started off as a product. So we we we I cannot run an agency to save my life, frankly. That's a tough, tough job, you know? And uh it's it's a very it that's a stressful job. So we uh we we come at it mostly from a product from a software product angle and building uh building products.
SPEAKER_01And so what was your your products you have? There's there's a few products you have. You have Maocare, Blog Vault, WP Remote. What was the first product that you took to market? Was it Blog Vault?
SPEAKER_03Yes, uh, it was Blog Vault. So uh Blog Vault was the backup product. So I'll just give a quick history. What happened was there's this uh and yeah, I think many of many people in the audience would know, there is uh the founder of uh Stack Overflow, he would run a very popular blog called Oding Coding Horror for age, and it was basically targeted at engineers. And he had that website crash. And I was like, uh if uh the person who made Stack Overflow, which basically is you know the Bible for almost any engineer today, uh is uh it cannot maintain his blog and doesn't have great backups, maybe there's a problem there. And so that's the first product we created. And then that led us to then we did it for over a few years, and we realized that a lot of times people were using their backups was to recover from hacks and malware attacks. And we thought there are all these security plugins out there, security products out there, so why are they still using backups and what's going on there? And then that got us into security that led to Malcare because we uh we realized that there's a need for something better, and then and that finally led us to uh WP Remote, which uh which is where we realized that a lot of people doing a lot of these things were agencies.
SPEAKER_01And have lots of sites across lots of clients, and so for those that don't know, WP Remote is the one dashboard to manage all of your clients' sites, it plays in a similar space to manage WP and main WP, which we'll talk about in a moment. I want to come back to Blog Vault for a second because there were this this is I'm cute, I'm always curious about this entrepreneurial hunger and this mindset, right? There were lots of backup plugins around, you know, eight, nine, ten years ago. There were there was why did you think that you could come in and have something different to offer the market? Didn't you just look at it? Because I like I would look at a lot of plugins and say, well, I'm not gonna start, you know, a plug-in like Optin Monster or Convert Box because those guys have got that market cornered and there's no room for a new player. How did you what was the thinking that you know there's definitely room for a new play here? I'm gonna come in here and shake things up a bit.
SPEAKER_03So no, I think it was, I don't even think we we thought it through very much. We thought it was a it was an interesting side project. The one angle we didn't know that we are going to do differently is we realized that as we started exploring the space, because so first we started like, okay, fine, why didn't he have great backups? Why didn't uh Jeff have great backups? And then we like, okay, what does great backups mean? So we didn't even actually know what great backups meant then. And then what the hell is what is the software that they are he's using to make a blog? So actually, we were that much of an outsider that we didn't even know. Uh maybe would have come across WordPress, but I was as far removed from WordPress as possible. So we were discovering all of these things, then we were like, we were just exploring. Frankly, I still had my day job and I which I was enjoying very much. So uh uh I was very much focused on that in the evenings. I would uh mess around with uh trying to figure out what's going on here. And we realized that the one thing we did realize was that we knew that it cannot just be a plugin, it has to be a full service because that's the experience, that's what will make it uh uh really easy to use. And first of all, we came at it from an ease of use perspective, and later we realized that for great highly reliable backups, uh you just needed it to be a completely end-to-end solution with the service with data, you controlling the way the data gets stored, etc. So that start that became the differentiator at that point of time where everything else was a plug-in and uh that was a good and a bad thing, but that at the end of it was the differentiating factor.
SPEAKER_01And at some point, you you pretty early on in the journey you decided that it was gonna become a WordPress product, right? It it it it wasn't a backup solution for Magento or Drupal or Joomla, it's a backup solution for WordPress. Is that because WordPress had so much market share that you figured, well, if we're gonna do this and we're gonna serve the biggest part of the market, then we're just gonna focus on having a WordPress solution?
SPEAKER_03And uh, you know, again, so initially we were like, okay, fine, we first of all we did we didn't know anything else, so we had focused on WordPress. Then we realized that there's something called Joomla and uh Drupal. So we are we were wondering whether to create plugins, whether to go in that market. And we just did not know. The real the reality is we did not know. So we created a Joomla plugin, but we just and we had a few people use it, but we had the WordPress thing just seemed so much more, uh there was so much more activity happening there. And over the next few years, uh next couple of years, WordPress just took off. And I can tell you that it none of it was planned. It uh we just started by uh riding the wave, essentially.
SPEAKER_01And so I do want to come back and talk about um the topic of this uh of this show, which is about avoiding the time sink and how agencies can prepare for a rainy day. But before we get there, I want to talk about the journey of you know, Blog Vault was the first product. How long before you realized that there was a need for something like Malcare? And and was Malcare the next product that you launched?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I think it was about three to four years, or three years into it, or four years into it, that we realized that Malcare was a what malware was a problem with WordPress, and security was a problem with WordPress, which was not solved well enough uh already. So because you know, these big brands were there, there was WordFence, there was Sakuri, there was ITheme Security. And security, if you're actually a security outsider, then you or if you don't uh know much of security, it seems like a very, very complex topic from outside. And uh so we were also very wary again of entering into security because you know you have these folks who are like security experts, who who are you know, these uh people sitting in the basement, you know, kids who are geniuses and stuff like that. And we were we were not that for sure, right? So uh uh so we we we are we are very wary of what's going on, but we also realized that the problem is not getting solved uh uh as it should be. And we started exploring how to solve it. So because people would get hacked and they would recover, they would try to restore from a backup, and then we you know, restoring from a backup from when you're hacked is actually not a good idea, and we can talk about that. Uh actually, we should talk about that uh a bit down during this uh this uh this comment.
SPEAKER_01I do that all the time. I used to do that all the time until I until I kind of realized that the thing that caused the problem was probably still in the backup, right?
SPEAKER_03So that's definitely one of the problems, but also what we realized is that people just were not realizing when their sites got hacked. So they were sites would get hacked six months ago, for like six months back, and they would not realize it for all this file. And because we had the history, we would go in and help these customers out. Like, no, you see, you see that the the hack is sitting there like that file that malware is sitting six months ago, and it just got activated now. So you're noticing the problem today, but it has been around for a long time. And I'm not even talking about the vulnerability, I'm talking about the site itself got infiltrated. So that's what actually that's the problem that we started trying to solve because you had all of these other security solutions, and all these people were paying a lot of money to for on those security solutions.
SPEAKER_01And then and then at some point, uh because I think I discovered you through uh through WP remote, right? I I had I was I kind of knew about Blog Vault, the name was familiar, I hadn't used it, I had no idea about malcare. That was I didn't even know that existed. I thought Security was the only real security plugin. Uh, but I went looking for an alternative to Managed WP, full transparency after GoDaddy bought Managed WP, and I just watched the experience and everything just tank, and I just wasn't happy. And I was also hearing lots of feedback from customers of ours who were using Managed WP who were complaining in our groups going, oh, this is just a turd now. What do we do? What should we use? And I, as part of serving my audience and also looking for a solution for myself, for my own sites, not for my clients, because I haven't done agency work since 20, I don't know, 17, 2018. So I was just looking for a solution for my own sites. I went searching and I remembered vaguely the guys from Human Made had built a solution to manage their client websites, and it was called WP Remote. And then I came across this blog article that Blog Vault had acquired WP Remote. So I went down that rabbit hole, discovered WP Remote. I think I reached out to you. We had a conversation, I'd started using WP Remote. I love it, by the way, it's fantastic. How did the, and we talked about this before the show, talk to us about what happened with the acquisition of WP Remote and why did you think again, like why did you think, well, there's a need here in the market. There are already some big players in the market, infinite WP, main WP, managed WP. Why did you think that you could then come in and offer something different again?
SPEAKER_03All right, so it's the uh WP remote acquisition story is actually very interesting, and uh maybe we'll we'll delve in two minutes into that, like how that really panned out. And there is an Australian angle to that too. So that's a very that's a very interesting one. But uh again, that the the the need itself for something like this, we started noticing because we had agencies who would lose their backups and they they realized that Blog Vault is the uh has a is a great backup solution or or Malcare is a great security solution across all their sites. So they would come in and they'd start adding all their sites to it. But occasionally we would have customers leave us and they would be moving to Manage WP. Uh and we would ask them what's going on there. So they're like, see, ManageWP has built this, and this is a few years ago, they've built the solution which lets me manage all the sites, and that's a key part of uh of uh the overall solution that I need. While your backups are fantastic and everything else, but we have to uh we want to consolidate in a single tool. And that's when we started building the updates, etc., into this into the system. Now, as we were doing it, and even today we face a lot of, you know, we are still in that transition phase, is we realize that we need a second separate brand for the product. Because we because people would come in our blog world webpage, and fortunately we have updated the home page uh a few weeks ago, would say that we are a backup solution, and a lot of everything is written around backups on the internet. So people would discover us under backup context, and whereas people were looking for a managed WP alternative. So if you're if you're looking for a managed WP alternative and you landed on Blog Wall, you would hear read everything about backups, and it's it's a very confusing story. So, which is why we realized that we needed a brand for uh for uh for uh our agency product. Got it. And uh whether to start it from scratch, we saw that and we realized that uh uh human made was looking to sell it. And uh I knew the human-made folks, uh, I'd met them at a few WordCamps. So I I reached out to them whether they are interested in selling it to us. And while we were discussing this, you know, uh I remember sending them a mail, and then I was like, okay, fine, maybe they'll get back to me. And they got busy, I got busy, and because I did not reply back to them, they thought I'm not interested anymore. Or I did not follow up, they thought I'm not interested anymore. And in the meanwhile, this Australian agency was swooped in and they purchased WP remote from uh from Human Made. And so that's just a case of you know this follow-up thing, and which have which is us which is a lesson which I need to just learn every day. That following up is and and something which we actually there's so many angles, so many times I can imagine I can understand that following up is so important in as an entrepreneur. And as an agency owner, also I'm sure you must uh you must be talking about it like all the time.
SPEAKER_01All the time. And it's not that not that people, it's it's not that when when when you send an email to someone and they don't respond, or a direct message or a LinkedIn or whatever and they don't respond, it's not necessarily that they're not interested. It's just that they're busy and they've got so many other things that are on top of their agenda. So following up is if you can do it in a polite, friendly, strategic way, following there's a real art to being able to follow up with people without being annoying and realize that they do need reminding because they're busy doing a million other things, right? And if you don't, then you miss out on the thing that you wanted to buy.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, and it uh it burned me to no extent that we dropped the ball on that. And that follow-up is so important. Uh even with me, like you know, there's a hundred things going on, and you just uh are unable to prioritize everything. So there is that unready email sitting on your inbox, and then if it comes up, if it bubbles up because there's a reply on it, it gets done, or maybe you just then at that time you are able to prioritize it. So, so yeah, so that's uh that's what happened. And then we I would keep looking at WP remote while still investing in Blog Vault. I was like, okay, fine, maybe we'll build a brand later. Let's just keep investing and building the product out. And we we started getting a lot of agencies starting to use under the Blog Vault brand. So we would get all of these people with 500 websites, 300 websites switching from uh from uh uh manage WP to our product because manage WP started entering a status, you know, they just stopped evolving. Uh and uh so all these customers would start uh uh uh using uh switching over to WP or to Block Vault, actually, essentially, then and uh and I I would keep keeping a tab on I would keep a tab on what's happening with uh WP remote, just you know, as we are as an entrepreneur, you know, once something enters your head, it's always it's it stays around. So uh uh it so I would and then I noticed that the product was just sitting there. So while manager WP was sitting and uh doing nothing, uh WP remote was also uh just static, essentially, with no changes coming in. So that's when I try to reach out through human-made folks uh to to the new owners, to the previous owners, and they were like, yes, we are uh we are happy to let go of it. So we again uh came to an agreement and finally the ruby remote brand landed on our uh on our uh uh yeah, we were able to acquire it.
SPEAKER_01Great. But you were you were telling me pre-show, you just acquired the the brand, right? You didn't actually use their code base, you didn't use their product, you just wanted the brand positioning, but you basically rebuilt the solution from from the ground up.
SPEAKER_03And that's that's correct. So we we did acquire everything, though we didn't use any of it. So we transitioned the customers out, so frankly, it was a very, very expensive and convoluted domain name that we purchased at the end of it. But uh, you know, sometimes just getting an established brand or uh salts uh helps you, and that that I think uh looking back, I would still repeat it.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's well, I can tell you that's what brought me into your ecosystem, and that's what got me to start recommending WP Remote because I knew the WP Remote brand, I knew that it had been attached to human-made, I knew that there was there was trust there initially. I was like, this is interesting, Blog Vault have purchased it, uh, I I got involved, and if if I hadn't if I didn't, if that connection wasn't there and that established brand trust wasn't there, I may not have ended up a customer and uh an advocate. So uh so that strategy worked well played. Um and so at the moment, I just also want to talk about the final product in your in your suite, which is Airlift, uh, which is the which if you which is new, I'm I'm imagining I think Airlift is relatively new, is that right? And can you just walk us through exactly what Airlift does.
SPEAKER_03Alright, so Alift is actually just new, and we are uh we have we are we have got a few customers, but we are just slowly rolling it out. So so you know uh backups and security are important, and we we also realize that agencies really suffer with or websites, actually. One of the other big problems they suffer with is performance. So uh speed is an ongoing challenge, and again, there are so many plugins and services and everything else out there, but uh you know, uh uh a slow website is everyone still complains that their website is slow. And so we were we're like, okay, fine, we understand this. Uh we uh we uh we want to make websites like we want our basic premise is that we want a one-click solution to the most trickiest problems around a website faces, right? That's the that's the whole premise of the company. And uh so while we and speed became that one problem where we are like, okay, yes, this is a problem which we can solve, where we will our goal is to make a website fast with a click of a button. And that's what airlift lets you do. So, what we have done is we approach a website almost like how a speed uh expert would do, a performance expert would come in and do, and then we have deconstructed and we use our systems and we use our knowledge from almost a million websites that we have to figure out what optimizations to apply to our website in a manner that uh it continuously keeps that website uh uh makes it as fast as it can be.
SPEAKER_01There is, I just want to go back a few seconds. You said the whole premise of the company. Can you just repeat that? Just want to park here for a second, just reiterate that for us again.
SPEAKER_03All right. So, you know, websites are super important. And again, so I'm now now we're getting into the company philosophy, but websites are super important. Again, I don't need to tell you you or your all or other people here that we we all uh almost uh yeah, we'll all almost live uh and die by this, right? Websites are critical to any business, and uh uh you but you know, making a website effective and running and keeping it, getting the most out of a website, frankly, is a very, very difficult job, right? And the most uh actually this is something which uh I have almost adopted from a really good friend of ours, but what this is what we call like the Maslow's hierarchy of need of a website, okay? And right at the bottom is uh is security and you know just presence, and that's uh that's some that's a problem which we are we have solved to a great extent with backups and security. On top of it comes speed and performance. You need a website. So once it's running, up and running, then you talk about performance, right? So and that's the problem we are solving now. Once you have performance, then comes usability, and finally on top of it comes conversions. Usability conversions and traffic. So we uh hopefully over a period of time, we will make everything so easy that for any business, their website covers the entire pyramid and with a click of a button. So that's the other angle of it is we want to make it with a click of a button and enable agencies and website owners to get the most off a website. So that's the overall premise that we are choosing.
SPEAKER_01I love this because it if you look at the products that you've got and the decisions that you've made to either build products or purchase domain names or go after a particular part of the market, it's all very much in alignment with that sense of purpose, which is and it's all over the four different sites Blog Vault, WP Remote, uh, Maucare, and Airlift, that messaging about making WordPress maintenance or security fun and easy and accessible and one click, that messaging is really consistent across the different assets that you've got. And so that I'm imagining makes it having a really tight purpose and a tight vision like that makes it easy for you guys to make decisions about which products and and uh which uh incentives to go after in the future.
SPEAKER_03Oh yes, absolutely. And it it just gives you the it gives you a sense of purpose, it helps you build a team, it helps you encourage everything. So it makes the company, yeah, it makes the company much so much more fun to to build, frankly. And it has taken a long time to get to this point. And a lot of this, like the vision, overall vision is not, you know, we adapted it, but it also comes from this really great agency called uh Valet. And uh they were very early in the maintenance space, and I remember their founder talking to me about this, and that thought stuck with me. They came at it from a different angle. But I was like, this is what essentially what we are doing, also. So we adapted it from a from a perspective of having our servers do a lot of hard work, making it one click, but that's the overall purpose that we are chasing from a website's perspective.
SPEAKER_01Do you know uh do you know Kimberly LePerry from Valet?
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely, she's so lovely. They are big, they are like the oldest customer of one of the older customers of ours as uh that she they're in Kimberly's a Mavericks Club member.
SPEAKER_01They will be at Mavcon in San Diego in a couple of weeks. So uh look at this is for me very strange that these different worlds of mine that you guys know each other, so I'm really excited to hang out with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know if uh I I don't know if Kimberly is a better friend of yours or mine, though.
SPEAKER_02I'm a better friend.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so lovely. I the entire team is so fantastic, and they have just stuck around and gone back. So yeah, it'll be it'll be fantastic to uh yeah, to hang out, actually, all of us together.
SPEAKER_01Very much looking forward to it. So for those who are listening, we're going to WordCamp US in San Diego, which is September 9, 10, and 11. Uh, we're hanging out there. Um Akshat messaged me on Messenger recently and said, Hey, are you gonna be at WordCamp US? Uh I'd love to meet up. And I said, Yes, I am. In fact, we're running an event uh the week after WordCamp US is our Mavcon event. Are you gonna stay around? And he said, Yes, I am. And I said, Well, you should come along. And then we got chatting and then we talked about sponsorship, and then Akshat came along and grabbed the platinum sponsor. So they are the big sponsor at uh at uh MavCon, uh, and we're very grateful for that. Um it our sponsors are very dear to us, and that they are what allow us to make our events uh even more amazing. And for those, and by the way, I don't recommend products because people sponsor us. I've been recommending WP Remote and Blog Vault in our channels for a long time before you guys became a sponsor. So for everyone listening here, I'm just gonna give you this shout out now. If you haven't used WP Remote and Blog Vault, go and check it out because I I've used just about every product on the market, and I don't recommend products unless I actually use them. It's just a philosophy of mine. I won't take affiliate commission or sponsorship for a product that I don't actually like using myself. So uh go and check out WP Remote and Blog Vault, and there'll be more about that coming up over the over the coming weeks. We'll talk more about that because I genuinely believe it is part of the the arsenal that you should have as an agency owner. Now, I do want to talk about, you've obviously seen inside a lot of agencies because a lot of your customers are agencies, and one of the things that we wanted to talk about is how agencies can prepare for a bad day. So I just wonder if you can kind of talk to us a little bit about some of those challenges that you see across your agency clients.
SPEAKER_03Right. So so again, if you if you see our product portfolio and the stuff that we do, we do come across, you know, backups is like for the worst day of our website cycle. But but that also got us thinking as to what really happens in it from an agency's perspective, what are they dealing with on an ongoing basis, and as the conversations we would have. And we realized that over a period of time, and almost any profession, especially as an entrepreneur, you we do have problems which we fight, we do fire-to-fire fighting on an ongoing basis. And uh, what are the different problems that an agency faces, especially from a website perspective? Because the uh and and we realize that there are there are like a bunch of things, right? And uh uh, and some of it are simple, some of it is complex, some of it happens often, some of it is rare, some of it you think is rare, and we have seen seen happen. So all this combination happens, right? And uh uh let me tell you upfront that client not sending you uh their uh the content. You have just signed up for the profession, live with it. Don't that does not count as uh as a mishap at all. So uh we are not going to cover that uh as part of this. So so yeah, that's just that that's just hazard of the profession, and uh uh we we need to figure out uh we yeah, we need to live with it.
SPEAKER_01100%. I had a conversation with a new Maverick yesterday who was saying, you know, one of the big challenges I've got is getting content from from clients. And I said, Yeah, what what he's he has a large IT company, but they've started an agency within the IT company, it's relatively new. And I said, Yeah, welcome to our world. I said, There are two ways to get content from clients. One is really painful, and the other one is you just do it yourself and you charge them for it because waiting for content from clients is just gonna destroy your business 100%.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so that's a that's a disclaimer which should go right up front because if people are uh looking for a solution to that big problem in this, you can turn off the yeah, I have some other uh I have some other ideas which we'll talk about.
SPEAKER_01One of our other sponsors at Mavcon is in this space, so we can talk about that on another show. But yes, Blog Vault and and Malcare and WP remote are not gonna help you get content from flying.
SPEAKER_03Yes, absolutely. Uh yeah, that's not that's not a we're not magicians here. Yeah, but so yeah, uh but you know, the the simple things can be, you know, you for forget a password and you maybe you're not getting a mail, so that's an easy problem. Like that, when I'm sure you must be facing that often enough, and you'll take you'll do so, you'll use and the solutions are also not that complex. You know, there are a bunch of password management solutions out there. You manage WP dashboard, main WP dashboard or WP remote dashboard will give you a single sign out. So easy ways to solve that problem, right? Like uh who's uh how do you manage it? How do you maintain the security aspect of those like from a password management perspective? You have one password, last pass it, stuff like that. So simple things I wouldn't I wouldn't even call it like a bit, but those annoyances happen. Or if you're working with a contractor, what happens there? How do you handle that situation? Simple things are you don't you don't those small things will disrupt your day-to-day functioning, or a mail comes in, and unfortunately, those things can't wait, you know. Because your colleague is stuck on something like something so trivial, or your client is stuck on something so trivial. So those those those is those small issues are there, there are simple solutions for that. And then we go to more more something which happens a lot more often. For example, uh like updates. How do we handle updates? What goes wrong during updates? Uh, those are those are things we need to now start preparing for in a and I'm sure uh you are you will have very, very strong opinions as to how do you plan for things like this. But that's things that go wrong over here needs much better planning.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I I hire someone else to take care of that problem, actually. That's my solution, is I just hire someone to take care of it because I don't want to do it anymore.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And you need to, but you you even if you hire somebody to do it, you still uh you know, and I'm sure a lot of people watching this are the people who get hired to solve the problem for for uh for that specific problem for the businesses that they're helping. And uh uh and dealing with all eventualities from things like you know, uh a plugin. I have actually there's so many things that you need to deal with over here with around updates. Uh simple thing is like, okay, fine, an update is uh not uh, you know, uh an update breaks. Actually, not that's not the simple one, but it actually happens that an update does not go through properly, right? Something has gone wrong during an update, and uh maybe a site crashes because of it, or some the a site breaks in different ways because of it. How do you manage that? And that itself is a very, very big topic. Because how do you identify what's uh uh uh whether the site broke? Because uh how do you how do you deal with that eventuality that okay, fine, if the site breaks, uh how do you test things? How do you so those are those are use cases that we we really need to think very deeply about? Because on the surface, a lot of these things, the things uh, you know, a lot of uh from as an outsider, this business looks, oh yeah, that's very easy. I'll just go click uh click the update button. How difficult is it? There are the solutions out there. But yeah, uh uh again, uh as people who have experienced this and do this often, we realize that no, no, there's a lot more going into it. I need to plan every, you know, I we need to plan out the eventualities that happen over here. For example, there are simple websites, there are more complex websites, but they still need to be tested. How often do we test it? You know, but but the client is not paying me enough. So, how uh do I do it? Should I test it, should I not test it? What aspects to test to know whether the site is breaking? But the easier ones are, and in fact, while I call it easy, it's still not easy, especially if you're using a remote dashboard, is identifying when uh actually a site has completely crashed uh after an update. Because sometimes it the plugin update might happen and you don't know whether it the site is up or not. And now there are tools, even manage WP or WP remote, let you do that, and then you start expanding into things like uh visual regression testing, you know, and uh then you go further, you can talk about or you can think about automation and you need to plan this out. So, as an agency, those situations that they occur, how do you plan it? And how do you plan it for clients at different levels? So you have clients which are uh which are not paying you that much on a monthly basis, and we I'm sure we all have clients of that kind, but uh and big and it's a it's a good sometimes it's good to have that mix of clients also. Uh and uh there are others who are running million-dollar uh e-commerce stores, WooCommerce stores, and there it requires a completely different level of testing. So, how do you manage that situation that to discover itself whether something is broken or not?
SPEAKER_01How does how does WP Remote not to park too much in the product, but how does WP remote handle updates and actually checking? Well, I've had e-commerce store. We were selling tickets to an event, and the one of the plugins that we were using was a ticket printer would actually print a PDF and email it to the client. And that broke. We updated it and it broke halfway through a launch, and so people couldn't buy tickets, did they? And it was awful, it was horrible, it was the worst nightmare. Um, and we had no idea that was happening because the orders were still going through, but people weren't getting their tickets. So it was a back, and we and people started emailing us saying, I haven't got my tickets, and it was an absolute shit show. Um, how does WP Remote manage the updates of plugins and how does it mitigate those kinds of issues?
SPEAKER_03All right, so that that you know, but the most interesting one, the word you used here was like it was a shit show, right? It becomes a nightmare and it escalates really, really quickly. Because when things stop breaking, especially just imagine you're a your client, they are on your back and they can disrupt your entire day. Because because uh again, I'm sure uh like uh in your courses, it's must be you speak so often about you know just managing it and being having that having a rhythm, and it can break your rhythm completely. Doing these things can completely break your rhythm, and then that will make this business ineffective, actually. So we need to plug again. I'm just harping on it, but it's just the the the emotional aspect of it and the business aspect of it is super important because uh we want to make we and we need to build processes to make this uh uh you know as uh uh as smoothly running a machine as possible. Right now, uh okay. Now coming back to WP remote. Uh so the and again we have a long long view of this as to what we want to achieve with WP remote on this. And uh so what we do is we do we we we let you take a backup before doing the update so you have your basis covered. Uh uh we will give you like strong alarms and alerts if an update fails, so we'll uh review that. We let you do visual regression testing and that also across multiple pages, and we'll alarm you as soon as we see a problem over there. Obviously, if a site goes down, we are we'll alarm you about that too. But eventually, and this is something which you are building towards, there are two things we are doing for as you start expanding into better websites, right? More important, more complex websites. So, the number one is uh is things like form submission. So we'll automatically be able to identify forms and do some of that testing. So we believe that across uh all the websites we have, we can do automate that for you. So we will do the form testing, we will test it out, and we will tell you that okay, is that form working or not working? Right? That's one. And then we can go expand into WooCommerce stores and e-commerce, and a lot of it can be automated without you doing any of that automation. That's again something which we are we think of, you know, the whole company philosophy, it ties into that. And we have all the infrastructure to do stuff like that. The second part we do, and this is actually a big feature which we plan to cover, which we'll be releasing soon, hopefully, is uh this thing where we'll create a staging site for you on our systems, do the updates over there, and we'll also take care of you know, stage everyone says that do us create a staging site, do updates there. But almost we never end up doing it because it's an extremely time-consuming process. Right, because comica creating a staging site, taking a backup, refreshing it, spinning up a staging site, all of that takes a lot of effort. So we will do all of it for you, do the visual regression testing over there on the staging site, and over a period of time uh uh uh run the forms and everything else, do those tests on the staging site, and then uh tell you whether if everything has gone smoothly or not, and whether to apply that same thing again on the live site. So this is a feature which is ready, and we need to just start rolling it out. So that's uh that's something which we are very excited about, and we'll also take care of like you know, the premium plugin licenses. We will automatically handle that for you. That's the other sticking point, and that's something which we'll handle. So we'll take it from the live site, take the package and apply it to the city side because that's wow.
SPEAKER_01Let's just hang on a second. For the uninitiated, for the people who haven't been down this for the people who haven't been punched in the face with this very issue in the past, let me just unpack here. This is gonna save not any a lot of time. I've spent hours in the past emailing a plug-in company, several of them actually, asking them if I can please authorize my license on a staging site. Oh no, I'm sorry, you're using two of your active licenses, you need to buy more licenses. I'm like, I need to I need this for five minutes on a staging site to check that it's working. And so not only is it time consuming, but it's expensive because you end up with more licenses because you're testing stuff on on staging sites. So you just said that you will transfer the the premium plugin over to the staging site so that you can check the staging site with the actual premium plugins activated. Because I've been caught out in the past. You test it, you come up with it. Got it. Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so there's a lot of work that goes into building these things, and uh which is why you know we are almost also so this feature was actually ready maybe nine months ago, but just tweaking it to perfection takes a lot of effort, and that's what we have been uh doing. So uh uh that that's something which we are doing, and making that this uh the premium plugin feature and uh premium plugin updates, and we have done all of that, and that's something which is going to come out again, and it's again tied to our philosophy of one click. How do you make the whole process of running a website easy?
SPEAKER_01That's great. I I just logged into my uh WP remote dashboard. Now, full transparency, I've only got a handful of sites in here, my own personal sites that I manage uh and uh a website of my wife. So I'm not using this for clients, but I logged in and it's got my sites here and it says warning next to the sites that have warnings because I haven't updated my plugins because I'm a lazy son of a bitch and uh I need to get onto it. But it tells me the plugins, updates available, the themes that are updates available, and it tells me what the warnings are that there are outdated plugins and vulnerability issues that I need to fix. So uh the interface is beautiful. Uh I love it. I've really been enjoying using it, and um I'm really encouraging everyone to go and check out WP Remote, not because Achat is a sponsor, but because it's a bloody good product. So go and check it out. Um, talk to me. One of the things that you must have seen is a lot of agencies. I I felt this way when I first started out. I knew that there were plugins that needed updating. I knew that there were security vulnerabilities in a website if we didn't update the plugin and we didn't keep WordPress up to date and we didn't do the backups, but the client. Clients had no idea, and they weren't prepared to pay me a hundred bucks a month to do that work for them because they didn't understand it. But I felt so I just would end up doing it for free. And I because I was an idiot and I didn't know what I was doing. And also there was no one like me around back then to tell me not to do it, right? That I should charge for it. And there were care plans didn't exist. That wasn't a thing, right? How do you and maybe you don't have an answer to this, but I'm curious like, how do you have that conversation with a client and say, how do you show them the value of backups, security, plug-in updates, all that WordPress updates, all that kind of stuff, and get them on board? Because I know it's the fastest way to build recurring revenue in your agency, and recurring revenue in the agency is the fastest way to actually steady the ship and avoid that feast and famine uh kind of cash flow that most freelancers and agencies go through. And so you must have some insights from the agency clients that you've worked with.
SPEAKER_03Right. So, you know, frankly, uh it's such a tough uh tough thing to do, and um you guys must be commended for because you essentially created the industry. I can so uh and again, I'm not uh trying to uh you know, trying to uh what do you call that? Uh you're you you know what I mean to say.
SPEAKER_01You're not blowing smoke up my ass.
SPEAKER_03I think it's yeah, I I yeah, I was I was just yeah, blowing blowing smoke up your ass. I was just a bit wary of using those words because I wasn't sure how polite or impolite that is. It's fine.
SPEAKER_01I'm totally gonna quote you from now on. I'm gonna say Akshat from WP Remote said that we invented the care plan industry. Thank you very much. I'm gonna quote you on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's such a key part, but it and you know, there are people who do send reports and stuff like that, but so much of it is happening in the background. That so, and I've spoken to so many agencies and so many people around it, and I know this this the hosting bit is one which is you know, there's a good and a bad people will be like, no, you should not host your website, and you're asking for more trouble. But hosting is the easiest way to get like, okay, fine, that's a value which everyone understands. People know that websites can't uh exist in no, they need some a physical server, and people need to pay for it, and you are managing this entire thing. So, hosting is one which may which we have seen people solve the problem, and I think that brings us to airlift. And this is the philosophy, this is the also the hypothesis is you know, customers love people today, fortunately, because of Google and because of the amount of noise that's gotten created because you know, around SEO and speed, and something which is so observable, people uh uh understand a fast website. Okay, and people understand the need for a fast website. And our fundamental premise is that we will keep the web, we will make the website fast for uh uh you know through a service, and uh the agency can showcase that saying that see, as long as you are subscribed to my care plan, your website will be fast. So it becomes a lot more visible thing to showcase along with everything else that you're doing, because security is a is a very vague thing, and that's a problem which we face ourselves. Even backups is a vague thing because you know we put in so much effort in making things more secure, we put in uh and improving malcare as well as our backups, but a lot of it even agency owners or even sophisticated uh business businesses like really large Fortune 500 companies, they don't realize the amount of effort we are putting into Blog Vault and Malcare the products, how we are making it more secure. Whereas Airlift, we know is much easier because there's an external validation that happens when we make the website fast. So that's a problem we are solving even as a business ourselves, just from a positioning perspective. So I think that also carries forward to an agency where the agency hopefully can use that to showcase the work they are doing and make the clients stickier to care plans because it's a very clear thing and they don't uh so it changes some of the dynamics, and that's at least the perspective we are following over here.
SPEAKER_01One of my favorite I want to I want to come back and talk about airlift in a second. One of my favorite exercises I used to do with a client was I would ask them, what do you want people to do when they visit your website? And they would tell me, Oh, it's very simple. They should visit the website, they should, you know, read a little bit about us and build enough trust and then download our free resource and then they should go through and buy our thing or or make an inquiry and get on a call with one of our sales team. I said, Great, let's sit in front of your website and you pretend that you're brand new, and and I want to sit, I want you to do that on your website. And they would load up the homepage, would take 13 seconds to load, and they'd be sitting there going, Oh gee, it's a bit slow, isn't it? And then they would try and find a little bit of information, they would try and find the thing to download the free resource. And after four or five minutes, they were so frustrated, they would leave their own website. And very I do this with our websites all the time. I go through our websites as a customer, I call it the secret shopper technique. You kind of walk into your own shop and pretend you're a customer and go, wow, look at this is broken. Like I've been in the shop three minutes and no one said hello to me. Like we need to fix these things. So uh, if you can get your clients to go through their own website and are trying to try and achieve their own goals that they've said they want their customers to achieve, you'll end up with a laundry list of things that need fixing. Am I right in saying that Blog Vault, Airlift, and MowCare are all part of WP Remote, that they're all kind of baked into WP Remote as a product?
SPEAKER_03Yes, so it's a it's a full, it's a single offering and it's all together. And we will that's the again the premise that we'll package it all together and give it as an offering to agency customers and give more and more of this functionality to agency customers. But it's interesting that you mentioned that. That you know that thing a few hours ago, I was talking to a friend and he was helping me with the same thing in Malcare, and I was just, you know, that pain you feel when somebody points out obvious problems with your website, and you're like, you're leaving money on the table. And he was pointing this out for critical flows for us. So it's so interesting that you're talking about it, and about 12 hours ago, I was undergoing that exact same process.
SPEAKER_01Um, I also want to break down the math here for people, right? This is not a plug for WP Remote, right? Let me make this perfectly clear. This is a plug to help you get more recurring revenue in your business. If you got if you have 20 sites and you're using WP Remote and you have 20, and by the way, I have no idea what the other solutions cost on the market because I don't have a look at them anymore, but I just want to run the math here. If you've got 20 sites and you are on the plus plan at WP Remote, it's gonna cost you $100 a month. $100 a month for 20 sites, right? Daily backups, uh, five active staging sites, one click update, single sign on a WordPress, uptime monitoring, daily malware scan, activity logs, visual regression training, white label plugin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? You charge one client $100 a month, you've covered the cost, the other 19 clients is profit. Right? Are you with me here, ladies and gentlemen? Like the economics of scale here are ridiculously in your favor. If you even on the pro plan, which is $300 a month, if you had 20 sites, you charge three clients, right? The rest is pure profit. This is a no-brainer. And this is, by the way, we have a whole training on in fact, we have a whole free blog post. If you Google agency Maverick's The Great Migration, you I there's an entire blog post and email templates and a complete turnkey system to get your existing clients onto care plans, right? We wrote this, we wrote the book for this back in 2016. Christina Romero published the article. She and I worked on this methodology for a long time. We have a whole training around it. Uh, we had a course called the Care Plan Masterclass, which I don't think is available anymore. Uh, we coach our agencies through this day in, day out. Mike Sprat in New Zealand, who's been on the podcast here, has built a multiple six-figure a year business and is on track to do seven figures a year. He does not sell websites anymore. He just does care plans. In fact, he gives away the website for free to get people on a care plan. And his care plans are around about 200 bucks a month, right? So this is an actually, this is a viable, legitimate, profitable business model. And if you are not doing, if you haven't got the bulk of your clients on care plans, you are missing out on recurring revenue. And recurring revenue is the holy grail of all business models because it gives you predictability. It also you can then forecast into the future. And so, I mean, we're a recurring revenue business model, right? So we know we can hire three or four people in the next three or four months because we know the cash flow is coming in. We're not chasing projects to pay the bills. Okay, so get around this, ladies and gentlemen. This is a no-brainer. And the technology and the price points that exist now compared to 10 years ago are completely, you know, like chalk and cheese. And that's because, as Akshat said, we invented the care plan industry, and now all these companies like W Peramo have caught up and are offering these products at these price points, which make it an absolute no-brainer. So there you go. That's end of pitch, right? But that's basically the pitch there. Uh get around it. Akshat, is anything you want to add there?
SPEAKER_03No, no, no. That's the true words have not been spoken. Recurring revenue as again, as I speak as an entrepreneur, and I think almost everyone in this room today are entrepreneurs, right? Is uh is what keeps the stress away because otherwise agencies is a feast and famine business. And this is what makes it give keeps you sane. I can, which is why right up front I said I cannot run an agency because the emotional roller coaster is uh it's not it's not my cup of tea.
SPEAKER_01No, absolutely. I mean, at the height, I mean I I had a wages bill. I remember waking up at the start of every month uh at with my agency, and I didn't have enough recurring revenue. And I would wake up every month and I knew that I was $30,000 a month in the red on at the start of the month, my fixed expenses minus my recurring revenue. I had 30 grand a month I had to go find in projects. That's stressful, right? Now, my business model these days, I can tell you, my expenses per month in this business far outweigh the revenue I ever earned in my agency. But I don't, I'm not stressed out at all in this business because it's a recurring revenue business model. So I wake up on the first of every month and we're profitable. I don't even have to get out of bed, right? I don't say that to brag. I say that because let me give you a quick story. Yesterday, my little boy Oscar, who's five, I got a phone call from my wife. Oscar has jumped off the monkey bars at Kindi, and he was supposed to land on this soft mat and he missed and he landed on the bark, right, on the on the ground, and really hurt his foot. And he screamed and he went down, and teachers came running. Anyway, I had plans yesterday afternoon to shoot a bunch of videos here in the studio with Max and I had to drop everything. I was out getting lunch. I had to drop everything, came back, grabbed my stuff, went to Kindi, picked him up, took him to the hospital, spent six hours in the hospital yesterday afternoon. Fortunately, he didn't break anything. He's just got a really bad sprain and some soft tissue damage to his ankle. He's got his ankle wrapped up now. He's home from Kindi. My wife's looking after him today. Yesterday afternoon, I said to my wife last night, how lucky are we that I've got the type of, first of all, how lucky are we that I work for myself? I don't work in retail or in an office or in a bank, right? I could just leave. I didn't have to ask permission. I could just leave whenever I wanted to. I'd go pick up Oscar, take him to the hospital. How lucky are we that my team are doing an amazing job delivering value to our customers and we've got a recurring revenue business model. So I have the flexibility. I don't need to ask. And it's really funny because the doctor said to me at the hospital yesterday, do you need a carers certificate? I said, What's that? And he said, Well, you might need a certificate to show your employee so that you can get carers leave. And I said, Oh no, that's okay, man. I don't need that. And I realized I'm one of the luckiest people on the planet because I have the flexibility to pretty much do whatever I want because I have a recurring revenue business model and a great team running the business. So I mean, that's why I do what I do. And yesterday I said to my wife, I feel like I've worked really hard for 15 years to get to this point where yesterday that is why I do what I do. So I can be there for my family and not have to worry about asking permission or worry about the you know missing a deadline with a project or any of that kind of stuff. So anyway, that's um that's the that's the reality of having this kind of business model.
SPEAKER_03So, Troy, first of all, I hope hopefully Oscar is doing better now and uh wishing him a quick recovery. Secondly, thank you. Also, I didn't know this, so thank you so much for doing this today. We could have um uh we could have we should have rescheduled it. So now it's fine. Thank you again.
SPEAKER_01And he's home with mom. So he's fine.
SPEAKER_03And uh as you mentioned, uh yeah, the gratitude of uh how lucky we are that's that exists, especially over the past couple of years. That's uh something which uh it uh yeah, you know, we are so lucky to be doing the and I know I'm we are going on a completely different tangent, but through COVID, being able to do the work which we love, yeah, and being able to do it effectively sitting at our homes in a safe environment. What exactly yeah, it is it it it just keeps, you know, it it just keeps coming back, and you can I cannot show enough gratitude for it.
SPEAKER_01Uh we we I the fact that you the fact that where are you right now in the world? Whereabouts are you in the world, right?
SPEAKER_03So I'm in Bangalore, India.
SPEAKER_01You're in Bangalore, I'm in Melbourne, Australia. In in a week and a half, we're gonna both be in San Diego hanging out. We've connected here via live video conferencing, right? I mean, this is the this is the golden era, right? We are so lucky to live in this time and to have the technology and the tools at our literally at our fingertips to start and grow a business that you can run in your pajamas during a global pandemic, right? From the safety of your own house. I have nothing but gratitude for the situation that we're in. And uh and the fact that I get to connect with people all over the world like this is just it's it's incredible. I mean, I pinch myself every day. I'm so so grateful.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. We I am uh yeah, we are we are we are uh I I consider myself extremely, extremely fortunate.
SPEAKER_01Hey, this has been super fun, and it is called the agency hour, and we are at the hour, so we kind of need to wrap up here. Uh, but this I we could I could keep doing this for for days, and we will in San Diego, we'll hang out and we'll do uh a live stream from San Diego into our group and all over our socials. So keep your eyes out for that. In the meantime, ladies and gentlemen, sincerely get around WP Remote and Blog Vault, reach out to Axat, say hello, connect, uh, ask any questions and make this part of your business model because it just gives you that added security. My approach is for agencies that you should have a look at your monthly expenses and you should at least be aiming to cover your monthly expenses, including your wage, right? Including all wages, including you, the business owner, cover all of that with recurring revenue. And then you wake up at the start of the month and you can say no to projects that aren't a good fit because you don't need the revenue. So make it a focus to build recurring revenue in your business and uh get around people like Akschat and the products that he's got to help you do that uh to make them super profitable. So, Akshat, thank you so much for your time here in the agency hour and super excited to hang out in uh in a week and a bit in San Diego, my friend.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much, Troy. Excited to be here and really looking forward to meeting you in person.
SPEAKER_01Take care, my friend. See you soon.
SPEAKER_03Yes, see you soon.
SPEAKER_01Bye for now. All right, ladies and gentlemen, that is another episode of the Agency Hour. Thank you very much to Akschat and WP Remote. They are a platinum sponsor at MavCon. Big, big invest a big uh investment for them and a huge uh investment for our team and for our uh our clients. It's helping us take the event to the next level. Uh and we really appreciate uh all of our sponsors. Uh, I'm gonna forget who they are, but we have uh WP Remote, uh we have E2M who just came on board yesterday as our dinner sponsor. So they are sponsoring the dinner on the Tuesday night, which means for everyone coming to Mavcon, the food and the drinks are on uh Manish and the team at E2M Solutions. Uh we're gonna feature them on the show coming up. They're a white label development agency uh based out of India. They also have a great copywriting service called Razor Copy, which we are starting to take for a spin now. Uh so keep your eyes out for them. Uh Termageddon, Go WP, uh Grid Pain. Uh Who Am I Missing? Sorry, that was a secret, was it? Sorry. Whoops. It was a secret. I just let the cat out of the bag. I didn't know it was a secret. Who am I missing? Come on, there's some sponsors I'm missing. Um anyway, go uh check out uh agencymavericks.com slash Mavcon. There are, I think, still some tickets left. Not many. There's literally only a handful of tickets left. The room is almost full. Um, and also uh someone's put a link here in the show notes, agencymaverics.com slash financial spreadsheet. Go and check that out because that's a uh this is a spreadsheet that I got from uh my friend Chris Martinez at Dude Agency, and he got it from the guy that started Design Pickle, right? This is a financial spreadsheet that helps you figure out the recurring revenue that you need to build in your agency to cover your expenses. It's an amazingly powerful spreadsheet. You and it gives you a super laser focus. You plug the numbers in and realize I just need to onboard two or three clients a month on a recurring revenue plan. And after 12 months, I'm having a very different experience on the planet because recurring revenue is like compound interest. So go check that out. And of course, my web audit is our other sponsor, Cliff, and the guys at MyWeb Audit. So very excited to come and hang out in San Diego. This is my last episode of the agency hour for this season. I think Johnny's doing one next week. We're gonna come back uh once I'm back from the States with a new, slightly different format, a new platform. We'll be streaming on our page and also onto YouTube. We'll have a whole bunch of new guests coming up. So keep your eyes out for that. This has been super fun, and I will see you. I will see you all after uh after Mavcon and WordCamp US in San Diego. Until then, have a great week. My name's Troy Dean. Bye for now.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Agency Hour Podcast. Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocketcast, Audible, and wherever you like to listen. You can catch all of the Agency Hour episodes on our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash agencymaverks. Or you can get involved. Check out our free Digital Mavericks Facebook group, where we broadcast these episodes live for our community every week, along with a ton of free training. We'll see you there.