The Agency Hour
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The Agency Hour
Building a High Performance Team
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You want to make people realize what they cannot think of. Once they do it, they realize, oh, I'm glad I did it. You know, I did not know I was able to do it. That's the whole idea about you know uh being a leader, to inject that kind of thought leadership in your team.
SPEAKER_01If you have a vision for the agency you want to build, then we want to help you build it. Welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast, brought to you by Agency Maverick.
SPEAKER_00All right, hey everybody, welcome to the Agency Hour here. I'm uh hosting today Johnny Flash, one of the coaches in Agency Maverick. Got some tunes playing here. Um, this is actually from my band that we recorded many years ago. Uh the band was called Polino. I played bass guitar. Um let you guys have a little sample of that here for a moment. Cool. Awesome. Well, good to see all of you guys here. Um, and glad to be hosting here on the agency hour. Uh at Agency Mavericks, we're helping uh agency owners you know level up their business through building out a team, a sales process, and getting their operations all squared away. So uh we're here to help you guys. Uh that was not me singing, no, I was just playing bass guitar. Um, but thank you, Max, for thinking of me like that. I do appreciate the uh the thought there. Um, so, anyways, we are excited to have a special guest uh here today. Um, Manish from E2M is going to be coming on talking about hiring and team. So please give Manish a warm welcome here as we uh we jump into today's conversation. Hey Manish, how's it going?
SPEAKER_03Uh going good, Johnny. Uh everything is good. Thank you for having me on the song. Uh, really appreciate and uh excited to uh speak with you today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, awesome. So um for those of you that don't know uh E2M and Manish, uh just give us a quick overview, if you could, Manish, on what E2M Solutions does and what you guys do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so uh E2M is basically uh a white level agency. So we work with uh digital agencies mainly and only to help them like scale their bandwidth problems so they can like take on more projects and free up their time. So we essentially provide like white level services to digital agencies. And I'm the founder of E2M and uh I started this company back in 2012, 10 years back. We just recently last month celebrated our 10th anniversary. So yeah, it's pretty much like uh uh it's been fun. Like I've been like part of agency ecosystem since last uh decade, and uh yeah, love helping uh agencies grow and scale.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. So how did you how did you get into it? Did you just say, hey, I want to offer a white label service? Were you um you know running your own agency and seeing other agents agency owners struggle with the operations or what?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it's kind of a long story, but I'll try to put it in a short way. So before I started uh before I started uh uh E2M, you know, I was working for two different companies, uh, and it was kind of like uh so I've been like a really good observant uh from my early days. Uh so I observed things very closely, and I think I was lucky enough to identify uh and understand the whole ecosystem from the very beginning. So uh I I personally think and believe that uh you know when you want to start a business, right? You want to understand your position in this ecosystem really well, right? So uh me being in India, uh I I understood the ecosystem that okay, if I want to build this business uh and grow this business in India, like what's our position in the ecosystem, right? And uh that's where I identified that okay, there are tons and tons of so many agencies, uh kind of like mainly solo agency owners and even like small agencies. And now these days, like we work with a lot of meet to large size agencies as well. Uh, they really want to start the agency business, scale the agency business, grow the agency business, but they do not want to uh kind of like go into the pain of running an operation, hiring, and you know, managing team and people and everything. So running kind of an operation, say they still want to grow the agency, right? Uh that's where I identified the sweet spot that okay, how about if we have a position, strong position in this ecosystem where we kind of like introduce our services as a purely white level, right? So that's how like I started focusing on that uh when we started agency, and obviously, like you know, uh niching down specifically to target agencies. So I was like, rather than going after every and any client and business, we would rather go after agencies uh to solve the specific problem. And I I think like uh I think like this, right? I think like the agencies we work with, they kind of do sales on behalf of us, right? So the more number of agencies we have, they are kind of like doing sales on behalf of us, and on the other way around, like we help them like uh execute those projects and help them like solve these bandwidth problems and help them scale their agency business without increasing their overhead costs. So that's how like you know, I uh identified the overposition in the ecosystem, and that's how we got into this white level business model.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, love it. Uh, for everybody that's listening in, uh, go ahead and drop in the chat. Would love to know how many team members you have uh on your team. So if you're watching on Facebook or whatever, drop that into the chat because um I know we've got agencies of all different sizes, and if you're using an outsourcing or white label service, feel free if you've got several people at that service that are helping you to include those in your count. But um, Manish, what we wanted to talk about today, because I think you've you've you've got this figured out, is you know, hiring and building a team because a lot of our agency owners, um, you know, maybe they already have some team members or they're trying to build their team, or maybe they're working with a white label partner like you, but they still have some things that they need to do internally, you know, with their own team members. Um Max says that they have 19 now. Uh, we have 16 on my team currently. Um, I know some other people will be chiming in here on Facebook as well, but uh Manish, how many people are on your team?
SPEAKER_03Uh as I speak, uh our total team size is 160, 160.
SPEAKER_00160, 160 team members. Wow. That's that's correct. Uh take my take my advice, multiply by 10, and then you get Manish's advice here. So um James says James uh who's watching on Facebook says agency of one right now. So your service is probably perfect for him because you he could scale up quickly. But um, for those of us that um are trying to you know build a team, hire some folks, obviously with 160 team members, uh you guys have done that a lot and have worked hard. Um, before you kind of tell us some of that you know secrets of hiring and kind of building the team, where is is most of your team in India or where are your team members located?
SPEAKER_03That's correct. Uh our headquarters is here in India. Uh that's where a majority of our people are working from. And we also have an office in uh California, San Diego. That's where we have four full-time employees uh working out of our San Diego office, but like a majority of working from our India office.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and are they um are the ones in the US are they sales or marketing or project management, or what are they doing?
SPEAKER_03Uh no, they are all copywriters. So basically, yeah. So we have uh uh one of our white label services is uh copywriting. Uh so our entire uh copywriting team is working out of our San Diego office. So they are all copywriters, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right, love it. Okay, and most of your clients are in the US or that's correct.
SPEAKER_03Majority, I would say like over 95%. So as we speak, we work with like over 150 plus agencies all across the US.
SPEAKER_00Okay, love it, love it. Awesome. Yeah, so so um tell us about the hiring. Tell us how you know what what tricks have you found that work well? What's tell us about your process in terms of how you go about uh vetting and hiring a new team member? I think that would all be really helpful for our audience, and I'm I'm always looking for some tips myself, so I'll be taking notes here.
SPEAKER_03It's kind of like you know, uh, when I started this company, I did not know anything like about hiring. I did not know about uh it was kind of like uh I was in a situation where I had to jump out of the flight and building my own parachute, right? So uh in order to survive and land successfully uh back on the land. So uh there are a few things, yeah, work for me, and I feel like uh those are the things are definitely can be helpful. So I think one of the most important things in the current era, I'll I'll speak more about the era we are in right now, uh, because it has been changed a lot uh over the course of 10 years. Like uh you cannot do the hiring in a in a traditional way, like how we used to do it earlier, right? So I think in in the in the uh in the current era, uh one of the most important things uh which I kind of look for uh is essentially uh can this person do this job without a title, right? So imagine you know uh if I'm hiring a project manager, I would not be hiring someone who is holding a title of a project manager. Instead, I would look for someone who is doing the same job without a title, right? Uh if it makes sense. So uh my idea is and and and and by no means I'm saying like people who are experienced uh are not eligible, are not good hire at all. But I I strongly feel like you know uh there are so many people who have the right traits, who have the right abilities, and they are kind of doing it, but they just don't hold the title, right? And they kind of need uh a push to do better in that job. So I think I would rather so I I think in in the in the conventional where people hire, like where you look for certification, uh you look for like you know experience, which is fine, right? But I think that doesn't just qualify the person to be eligible for uh you know what you are looking for, right? Uh the traits are very much important. I'll give you one example, right? So I'll again take an example of hiring a project manager. So there are so many PMP certification courses, like project management, professional certification courses, right? Uh all PMP certification courses will teach you like you know different types of project manager method management methodologies like agile, waterfall. They will teach you about all types of different tools and Excel and all that things. But essentially, when you are a project manager, uh essentially you are the first, the foremost, most important thing, you must be knowing and have a really good trait of how to you know work with people, right? Uh so not a single PMP certification tool is you know teaching you like how to deal with people, right? Uh if you are a project manager, obviously you are gonna manage the team, right? Uh or let's say if you're a client-facing, then you are managing multiple clients, you must be aware like how to deal with people, right? Essentially, uh you must be knowing how to lead the people. So there are some of the core leadership qualities project managers must have, right? And those are the things you know, usually uh they are not talking in talking when exactly they are teaching all these courses, right? So, and I I can show you like you know, so many uh people where they hold this certification, but essentially they don't know, like you know, they don't know how to deal with people. They have a fundamental the the fundamental traits missing in them uh which are uh required to be a successful project manager. So I I think you know I would I I would look for a traits over the skill or experience first, because skill that can be still trained. Uh traits are hard to inject because it's traits are kind of inbuilt, right? So uh that's one of the most important things which I learned is uh uh so I'll I'll give you a very specific example that okay, if I am looking for uh you know someone in like VPO of marketing, right? I would rather hire someone who is like you know having a really good experience in marketing, but the person does not hold the title, right? Um essentially, you know what happens that I have studied human psychology and uh different types of resources onto that, right? Uh, one thing I learned that uh we get our position in our head uh so quickly, right? So I think you know we call it persona. So persona is a Latin word. So when you say, okay, I'm a project manager, then essentially, you know, you are looking at everything from the view of a project manager. You don't want to lose your identity, you are carrying your identity everywhere, right? And some of the things you have to do, some of the course you have to do as a project manager, where you have to drop your identity when you are dealing with people, right? You have to be empathetic, you have to be kind, you have to just look at from a lens of a human, not from a like you know, your identity of a project manager, right? So yeah, I I think you know, uh this is the problem with majority of people, and I I think I I learned this hardware. So being a CEO, like you know, I used to have this kind of very uh kind of like strong personality, right? Where some of the course I I was having a hard time to do it, but now I have kind of mastered that art. I can switch, I can drop my personality where there is no need of a you know CEO personality, right? There are cores when you are talking to people, you just have to think like a human, right? You don't have to uh hold that personality, hold your position uh so tightly that it doesn't let you think from another perspective. So uh coming back to my uh example of hiring for a marketing, so I would rather hire someone who is having good experience in marketing and see that person, how that person is doing, letting that person do the job of VP, and then give that person a title. Or probably I would never give that person a title, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That person So you're saying you're saying the skills, the skills and certifications are important, but at the end of the day, you want them to be able to work well with people and be able to do the job and and fit in the culture of what you're building, right? So those have to factor in, and sometimes we underestimate kind of their people skills or how well they fit in the culture, right?
SPEAKER_03Yep. And uh I think one of the most important things is like you know, attention to detail, right? Um there are a lot of people uh who hold the right skills, uh right talent, but they kind of like miss out the most important trait, which is like attention to detail. So those are the things I would recommend to look for uh into people, which are like you know, the traits. So every job role requires certain traits, right? So if you are hiring for a customer service, then the customer service person should have that kind of like you know, empathy, that kind of like you know, really helping candid nature, like to help clients, right? Uh, that person should have that kind of understanding uh rather than you have like you know a stereotyped customer service person who just speak only scripted language, right? So specifically in the era of like you know, AI and everything, chat boards. I'll I'm giving an example of customer service that your customer service, if you're hiring someone, that person should be very much like you know, uh curious, that person is must be very much like you know attentive to detail and should have a great listening skills and ability to solve the problems real time while talking to customers, right? So those are the things you should test for rather than you know looking at the skills. Obviously, skills are important, but traits are it's that's something you should not overlook.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So obviously, you guys are how many, how many people must be hiring people at like a regular uh frequency, right? Because um, I'm guessing you're hiring a few people every month or certainly you know a lot of people every year. Um, what what's can you kind of give us an overview of your process? I mean, I even if it's not you, if it's someone on the team kind of doing it now, um, what's what's what are some of the you know uh hoops or hurdles that you put people through to kind of vet them during the process?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so uh we have a different process for different positions, right? So we hire developers uh across different technologies like WordPress, uh Shopify, uh Big Commerce. Then we hire on digital marketing front, like you know, SEO, we hire content writers, we hire a QA team, sure. Uh we hire like project managers, salespeople, customer service.
SPEAKER_00So uh obviously like a lot of let's take a let's take a WordPress developer or something as an example, because I think a lot of our audience that would be kind of relevant.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so uh one of the most important, so obviously, first we look for the relevant experience, right? Because it is kind of like you know, uh where we only hired experienced developers because when we onboard any agencies, you know, they look for the expert level of work. So we do not have a concept of like junior developer or senior developer. So obviously, we look for the developers who got the right standards. Um, so we try to understand the standards they have been following. Uh they should have uh a complete uh understanding about the WordPress ecosystem and how much like you know, uh regression testing they are aware of, right? So those are the technical things I'm I'm talking about mainly. So it first is skills, obviously. Uh we kind of run a practical test, they have to pass through certain tests, and then after you know, we do this traits uh testing as well. We look for like cultural fit that okay, they are fitting in culture, teamwork, and everything. So we have certain standards and like that. So we definitely go through this process, like you know, checking their abilities, uh running doing a practical test, and then we look for the traits as well. So I think it's a standard process. Uh, but yeah, it's it's our process is very like you know, vigilant and it's it's well defined. So uh I'm I'm I'm very happy to say that uh you know our we have extremely lower churning ratio. I think uh whenever someone is getting through uh the process uh you know hiring, uh definitely they have gone through a different stage, right? So and uh we make sure that we have a three to four different layers and three to four different rounds of interviews. So we have people who have been working with us since last eight years, they exactly know what we are looking for into people, apart from just like you know, uh their skill set, so accountability, you know, complete responsibility, ownership, teamwork, their attitude towards others, right? Uh, those are the most their communication, uh, their flexibility, uh, those are the things they look for, apart from these are the traits we look for, apart from just the technical uh thing. So I think you know, we have a well-defined process. So yeah, our selection ratio is also very lower. Like if we are interviewing like 10 people, hardly we are hiring like one or two people out of 10 people. So just because of this process. But yeah, uh, this is kind of well defined process we uh have defined.
SPEAKER_00Love it, that's awesome. Um, you know, because I think there's I think one of the mistakes that I see agency owners. Make as I'm coaching them, you know, in their business and stuff, is that often they just, you know, they're so overwhelmed with everything that they just kind of hire the first shiny looking person that they come across. They don't do 10 interviews, they don't do four rounds of interviews, you know, they don't interview 10 different people, and they just kind of like say, oh, this person breathes and has done some WordPress and seems like they'll be a good fit. So, you know, we'll hire them, right? And then they're all excited initially, and then they get a few weeks or a month into it, and then they're like, oh man, this person's a nightmare, or they're not showing up, or they don't communicate well, or I'm having to redo all their work. And it's like they didn't take enough time up front to really get to know them and confirm that they would be a good fit, and then they kind of you know suffer the consequences. So um what are the what are some of the pitfalls um that maybe you've kind of experienced over the years or have seen you know, maybe a team member make or something that when it comes to hiring, um, that you know, just some things to look out for, maybe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh before I answer that, I would like to just add one more thing. What you said last, right? I think, yeah, that's super, super important. That when you have a dire need, at that time you have to be super, super cautious because then uh if you are interviewing one person, you have made up your mind that okay, I'm gonna hire this person regardless of who's uh is good or bad, because I'm in need of this developer. I think that's the most important mistake a lot of people do, and I would say like staying away from that, uh, because that's that's gonna cost you even more, right? Because uh, and then that brings to you know, I'll that I'll lead to the answer of the another question you asked about the pitfall. So one of the things uh you know I kind of make sure is whenever we have like highly, highly experienced senior people we are hiring, I make sure that I personally take one round of interview as well, uh, just to make sure that and I'm I'm very obsessed about the people who are highly experienced and making sure they are the right fit, right? So recently we had this experience where uh uh uh our HR cleared the round, the project manager gave the green signal, and then I asked our delivery manager to take the interview, and I'm training our delivery manager about a few things, and and then we were we got to know that that guy is interested in completely different technology. So we ask kind of bold questions that is that something you really want to do in your life, right? Uh, and we get to know from certain answers that okay, this is something they are not super, super interested, it's just for they are doing for the sake of doing, right? So uh I think these are the kind of bold questions that need to be asked. Uh, in terms of pitfalls, here are the few mistakes which I made, and we make sure that you know do not repeat that mistakes. So when you hire someone, uh be it experienced or naive, or like you know, someone who is like mid-level uh guy or fresher, even with experienced people, you have to understand that they are not going to get you the results output from day one, right? So I think you have to have uh processes, you have to have like systems in place that okay, what is the onboarding process is looking like, right? So you have to let that person sink in in your processes in your organization to make sure that uh you know you set the right expectations, right? Oftentimes, uh, and that does that doesn't mean like you know uh you let that person to take forever, like large corporates happening, like people are sitting on batch for months and months, but not on an immediate basis, right? So there will be a week or two where they'll be taking time to understand things and and you try to understand their curiosity, and you do not limit, okay. I will not I'll only throw certain things at you because you are just starting out. Sometimes you underestimate. I recently hired a few people, and kind of like you know, uh, they have been working with me since just for uh one month, and I feel like they've been working with me since very long. So I kind of underestimated. I was kind of slow throwing things at them, and then I realized you know their capacity is like way more than I anticipated, right? Yeah, so yeah, I think you have to make sure that okay, if you throw multiple things, you observe the capacity and also make sure you set the right expectation, right? So this is the most important thing, and specifically, you know, if you are hiring remotely someone remotely, uh then you have to have the right tools and right processes in place. Because if uh if someone you are hiring will be coming to the office and sitting next to you, yeah, you can talk to that person and you know you can have the random discussions over the lunch or a random discussion at any point of time, uh, but that's not gonna happen over remotely. So you have to make sure that when you are hiring someone remotely, you have to have a separate processes and make sure that you know that you are connected with that person very frequently, at least in the initial period. And even to solve that problem, you know, one thing we did is although we hire pretty much everyone in office, uh, there are few people, you know, we find them really good and they are unable to come to the office, they want to join us remotely. So we started doing one thing. We asked them to come for four weeks, one month in the office for the first month. So we we pay for their like you know, uh stay, logistics, food, and everything for one month, just to make sure you know they understand our organization and they gel up and sync up really well with our project managers, and that that this process makes our project managers' life much much easier because they have now four weeks of time to build a really good repo. And then they know their capability, and then they from fifth three cornwards they will start working from home. So I think you have to you have to keep finding such kind of like processes uh to make it uh successful and and you know workable.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. I love that. Um, let's talk a little bit about culture, and then we've got a question in the chat that about outsourcing versus hiring that I want to get to as well. Um, but just in terms of culture, because I know um just even with the 16 people on my team and trying to like build the culture, have the camaraderie, all my team works in different places, whether they're in the US or overseas, they're all working, everybody works at home. So that's a different challenge, even than maybe with having a lot of them in the same physical place. But I think still there's there's you have to be intentional about building the culture and the values that you want to have like with your whole team. And so talk a little bit about some of the things that you do to help build that culture. I'll just throw one out before I turn it over to you here. You know, one of the things that we do is we have a virtual Christmas party uh with our team. And so we all get online, we have games planned, we have activities planned, we give away prizes. So it's not quite as good as if we could all be in one place, but we still have fun. Everyone dresses up festive and we just have a great time, you know, playing games and doing stuff together and giving out prizes and all that stuff. And it's, I think the team has come to uh really appreciate it. And last year we we took another step and we um asked everyone to contribute their favorite recipes, which was really fun because then we compiled a digital PDF of all of our team members' favorite recipes. Some were desserts, some were main meals, some were appetizers, and we put who contributed those with you know their picture of it or whatever. And so then now we've got, because we've got people on different continents like you do, uh, we've got all of these great recipes that are being shared across the ocean, which is super fun. Um, and we made a number of them over this past year, which was just really cool to think like, hey, I could message them in Slack, hey, I just made your mango float uh recipe from the Philippines or whatever, right? That I would have not thought of otherwise. So um that's been we those are just a couple small examples, but I would love to know some of the things that you guys do to help um build the culture among all your team members.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I I think what you have been doing is is really great. Um see, I I when I when it comes to culture, uh I kind of have a different idea, right? Obviously, the activities, engagement activities are definitely important. Uh but I think engagement, employees' engagement is not just celebrating the festivals or playing the games or organizing the events, it's actually beyond that, right? So in my uh my thinking, like employee engagement is helping people build the strong sense of community, right? So culture is kind of like essentially an engaged community uh which is working towards achieving a common goal. And employee engagement means like employees engage into community to help each other and build a growth-oriented environment where there is absolutely no room for complaints, inequality, being judgmental, comparison, envy, uh, superiority or toxicity or abuse or humiliation, right? So I think that's the idea of culture I have. And in order to do that, we have certain initiatives. Uh, obviously, the events help us to uh uh keep the you know uh people engaged and culture really well, but one of the most important things is uh part of is like trusting people, right? Uh the the the the the definition of trust works in a way like you have to trust people to earn their trust back, it doesn't work other way around, right? So uh one thing is that uh we have a strong uh you know thing in our company as a leadership team is uh making sure that uh there is not a single person doing the same job which other person is doing. So essentially what I'm doing, nobody else is doing in the organization. So if someone else is doing, nobody else is doing, I'm even not doing that that thing, right? So uh there is absolutely no room for micromanagement. And uh some of the things we have are core leadership concepts, it's kind of like owning the failures and passing the credits. So I have a this rule for our leadership team that if you want to take any credits, then you should not be in our leadership team, right? If you are in a leadership team, you have to only own the failures and pass the credits. That's where your job is, and you have to make sure that your job is to help your team win, essentially, right? So uh I think this way uh the culture builds in in a way like they always think like the people who are at top, they are people who are in leadership, they are here to help us grow. It's simple, as simple as that, right? So when we assign some, you know, any uh task or projects to them, we do not see from the lens of doubt. We uh we trust them, okay. You know, this is something I really want you to do. It and I'll help you if you get stuck anyway, right? Not like uh pulling their leg or like not like you know micromanaging in a way. So that way you uh kind of like you know, you are trusting them, and then obviously, you know, they will they they will do everything best in their capacity to build that uh kind of and and essentially that will the same thing will flow through word of mouth to other people, right? And that's the great way to build a strong sense of community. And a few other things, you know, we have an initiative where uh we have a fund pulling concept. So uh fund pooling, similarly, you know, this concept I introduced three years, four years back, uh it's it kind of like works the same, like you know, Uber car pulling, right? So uh every month, like what happens that uh we ask people that we will be deducting like you know, let's say you know, 100 rupees, right? Uh from everyone's salary, and same company will match, we'll create one fund, one pool of fund. And if anyone needs any financial help, they can get from that fund pool, and they can get that help without any interest or without any additional cost, it's kind of no profit, no loss, right? So now here is the thing, you know, I I could do this from the company, obviously, but the reason I included people just to build a strong sense of culture, right? And strong sense of community. So now if if one person, people are like the entire company is contributing 100, we are adding 100, and someone needs 200, then that's where that person is getting help from the entire company, right? And that way it really helps us to build a strong sense of community. That okay, we are here working as a community to help each other, right? It's not just like you know, one person is helping uh everyone, it's like everyone is helping everyone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so that's like an E2M cares kind of fund, right? Where people, team members can contribute to this fund, the company matches it with the with the for each hundred that goes in there, and then what's the process if someone's having a family emergency or something and they and they could really use some of the funds? How do they um I'm just curious? Uh, yeah, how do they get approval for that or whatever?
SPEAKER_03Uh so we have designed a committee, uh four people committee, and I'm not a part of that. Uh so those committee ask for the reason and decide like okay, what amount to be released, and then they decide like how will you pay back? And that person is like getting like certain X number of amount, and then that person will say, Okay, I'll pay like X number of money every month back, and in next six months or one year, I'll pay back the 100% amount. It's been working fantastically.
SPEAKER_00People are like really happy with the concept, so that's how it's so it's not a full gift in that sense, it's uh it's kind of a loan that they're paying back, right?
SPEAKER_03But it's without interest, you don't have to pay any additional cost, and and sometimes you know, people get stuck. You don't want to go to bank, you don't want to go to your family, you don't want to go to your friends, and you just want your money overnight, right? And yeah, I I think the the financial stress doesn't let you be creative, so the whole idea is like you know, not having a financial stress uh that helps us to like you know keep our community more stress-free. And yeah, also like when people leave, everything they contributed, they will get their money back. So it's kind of no profit, no loss. So you are not losing any money, and it's it's it's kind of like you know, the whole idea about like I I love this uh these words by Steve Jobs that uh you want to make people realize what they cannot think of, right? You let them people do that's the job of a leader, right? You let people do certain things which they cannot do it by themselves, and once they do it, they realize, oh, I'm glad I did it. You know, I did not know I was able to do it. That's the whole idea about you know, uh being a leader to inject that kind of thought leadership in your team. So these kind of you know, uh culture really help. And one last thing I would like to add, it might sound crazy, but uh one thing at our company we have is like we do not set any budget when it comes to planning any activity or any kind of like you know employee engagement thing. So uh we had our 10th anniversary last month, and we literally like 145. Uh obviously, not everyone could come, 145. We came to like you know, Goa, which is one of the most beautiful destinations in India. Uh, we flew from here, our city, 145 entire flight. Uh, we booked an entire flight, and three night, four days we booked an entire hotel. It was a crazy time. Wow. And we literally yeah, so there was no like you know, whenever uh HR team is coming to me and they are like, no, what's the budget? I'm like, let's do what is needed, right? So that's the whole idea I have is let's do what is needed rather than setting any budget.
SPEAKER_00Uh because it had to be tens of thousands of dollars, right? To fly 145 people and two hot and hotel nights for them and stuff.
SPEAKER_03I'll I can tell you exactly. I think it was costed around like $50,000.
SPEAKER_00$50,000. Yeah, I'm thinking it has to be a lot. That's amazing, though. What a what a testament to uh just your generosity as a leader and just you know wanting to build that camaraderie and and everything. I think that's amazing. That's so cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I I feel like you know, uh, when you spend on your people, it's not an expense, it's an investment. It's it's kind of like you know, you're paying it back because those are the people helped you earn those money, right? And those are the people you are like you know helping you build this brand. And it's kind of like paying back to them, right? Uh so we are we make sure about uh so I'm like obsessed about creating such kind of like you know memorable and lifetime experience. And uh we have an amazing team. Uh people are like, you know, uh people work really, really hard. We have our highest client satisfaction ratio, uh, and we have an amazing leadership team, you know. Uh so I kind of like you know make sure about these things that uh we always like uh keep our uh people at priority. So we have this philosophy which is like people or profit. Love it. So these these kind of different things. So I think you know, building a culture is not just about one thing. Uh obviously engagement activities are important, but you have to plan certain initiatives where people are involved actively, and you have to make sure, you know, essentially you are building a great uh sense of community within the people, and inevitably, you know, you will not run into problems where there is an envy, there people are not helping each other, you know. Uh people are like, you know, jealous of each other, like why this person is like, you know, why am I helping this person? I'm not responsible, why am I answerable to this person? Who is this person to tell me this? Like those kind of so you can kind of get uh keep those kind of problems away when you have a strong sense of community.
SPEAKER_00That's incredible. That's incredible. Manish, wow, I'm I'm just inspired listening to you. It's so good. Um, hey, before we run out of time, we do have a question in the chat, and anybody else who's got questions, feel free to drop them if you're watching on Facebook. But um they said could they would love to know if you could go over, and I have I have some thoughts I can add as well, but what are the advantages to outsourcing versus versus hiring? Obviously, for yourself, you've hired, you know, you've got a whole team that you've hired. Obviously, for people that are using your company, they're choosing at least for part of their business to outsource. Um, so obviously there's pros and cons for for both. But um talk about the advantages of outsourcing versus hiring.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, uh I can speak like for hours and hours and hours.
SPEAKER_00We got about 10 minutes, so we'll have to continue. I know, I know.
SPEAKER_03I'll keep it brief. I think uh see here is the thing everything has its own pros and cons, right? So when you are hiring, uh obviously you'd like you understand what kind of structure you want to build, right? So if you are an agency, uh if you want to keep everything in-house, right? Uh absolutely you have to hire. There is no other option. But if you can do a smart way of doing a combination of hiring and outsourcing, so this is my advice to agency owners is hire a key people you know in-house, like uh full-time, which is project managers, sales, account manager, customer service, those kind of people, maybe a creative designer as well, who are kind of absolute need uh of an hour where you will have to have a very strong coordination. You need you need to hire those people in order to free up your time. This is an advice for agency owners, right? So we can communicate with your so sales team is bringing your clients, project managers and account managers are like you know, taking care of your clients, the designer is putting together the designs and like that. Uh, you can think about like you know, maybe outsourcing your development needs uh just because it happens behind the scene and the develop the technology keeps changing, evolving, right? So yeah, just to give you an example, if you are hiring a WordPress developer, not every developer will be knowing like DV, uh Beaver Builder, Oxygen Builder, or any all types of alimenter and everything, right? So that's where you might need a dynamic, uh, you know, uh dynamic resources, and that's where outsourcing really helps. Because uh today you get a client who needs a website in DV Builder. Tomorrow they might need an oxygen, and then you know, you are kind of stuck because now you have in house someone developer, and but you that developer cannot work that. Or maybe uh tomorrow you get a client uh who needs uh an e-commerce website on Shopify. Tomorrow you need a client uh who needs someone, something help with like, you know, uh maybe building a WordPress plugin, right? Which requires a high level uh WordPress uh backend developer. needs. So uh having like combination uh really helps you to scale and grow faster. Uh yeah but yeah absolutely you have to uh understand the pros and cons of everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think you're right. If it's something that you only need every once in a while, maybe it wouldn't make sense to hire someone, right? Because you don't have 20 hours of work for them to do or you get that niche request that you're like, oh I really don't want to get into Shopify, but I if I have this resource I can offer Shopify help, you know, or whatever it is. I think those are great points just in terms of uh some of the advantages and and disadvantages. Obviously also with outsourcing all a lot of the management of the team and all of that kind of stuff happens behind the scenes. So you don't have to worry about it so much because usually you have like a project manager, someone who's dealing with the actual team who's doing the work. So it kind of automatically creates a layer between you and the person doing the work versus obviously if you're a team you've got to kind of figure that out yourself, you know, in terms of who's managing them and and all of those things.
SPEAKER_03So yeah I think that's a good size I I think like that right uh see you cannot outsource sales right you cannot outsource marketing branding of your business you cannot outsource like account management of your handling your clients you cannot outsource customer service. So those are the things inevitably you have to do it in your in-house within your agency.
SPEAKER_00So then the part which is like can be outsourced is like you know when you get projects on board like projects execution right those can be uh outsourced really well so it's kind of like create a win-win so you better want to spend your time and energy which are like you know spent uh very where the highest ROI is there right so and of you obviously like you know you have to think from a cost perspective as well so your if your margins are lower and you uh want to take more and more projects on board on a lower margin then outsourcing is the only option you have cool awesome well um manish man I I was I if you heard my keyboard clicking it was because I was taking notes on all of the great insights um and I think my biggest takeaway from everything that you shared which was just gold nugget after gold nugget was I love the part when you said uh leadership owns failures and they pass the credit um I think that is just that that mindset part there where the leadership is constantly owning their failures and passing the credit to the team or or whoever was involved I think is really huge and um I just love that.
SPEAKER_03So um before as we kind of wrap up here Manish any any parting thoughts or any um last things that you want to share here um I think one last advice uh I would share uh is like to agency owners like free up your time I think you know uh to not fall in love with your uh daily course daily job uh you know agencies like love clients and love sales and obviously which is great uh love like operations and managing team and but I think one advice I would say is like make sure you hire a VA so I recently hired uh someone like two months back and as that guy is helping me a lot to free up my time so free up your time you know uh one framework I follow is something everyone should follow is like uh free up your time uh freedom will lead to the boredom uh and do not worry about boredom boredom will lead to the creativity and creativity will lead again to the productivity so we often think like if I get free like uh what am I gonna do I'll be bored and but don't don't I mean don't get afraid of boredom yeah you will get bored at certain point but if you are like you know very creative obviously that boredom will lead to the creativity and then again it will lead to the productivity right so yeah uh outsource as much as you can uh you know this is the framework I follow everything you do you are doing right now ask yourself is that something can I get it done by someone else if answer is yes just do it right so this is my one of the most important advice because you know as we are scaling and growing you know I'm like obsessed about freeing up my time and focusing more on like you know things which are nobody is doing in the organization so which I really want to focus on. For that I have to free up my time. So that's something you know I really want to advise to everyone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah wow wow so good um he is Manish from uh E2M he's the CEO you can check them out online at e2msolutions.com uh full service white label digital agency that will help you scale and grow your agency and uh Manish I just want to say uh a thank you to you also um you all recently sponsored our Mavcon event in San Diego um which was just awesome to get to meet uh one of your colleagues who is there and and learn about all that you guys are doing uh for me personally and so um thank you so much for your support uh of us at agency Mavericks and just all that you're doing to help agency owners um I know that there's a lot of Mavericks that are using your services and and really find it helpful so thank you so much uh give him some love in the chat everyone and uh thank you so much Manish really appreciate you thank you thank you Johnny thank you for having me it was an excited uh an amazing conversation and uh yeah super happy to be a part of agency memories you guys doing amazing job so absolutely I'm obsessed about this ecosystem and really really happy to uh see you know this community growing awesome awesome well thanks a lot Manish uh for those of you all watching or listening uh tune in next week for the next uh hour of the agency hour we've got exciting guests lined up uh you're not gonna want to miss it if you need help with your agency uh head over to agencymavericks.com and uh we've got all kinds of different ways to help you nail down your sales your operation and grow your agency um so we'd we'd love to work with you and help you grow your agency as well all right until next time uh we'll we'll talk to you soon thanks guys thanks for listening to the agency podcast subscribe to Apple Podcast Spotify and whatever you like to listen to YouTube the agency channel YouTube agency podcast