The Agency Hour
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The Agency Hour
Failure is an opportunity: The impact of focusing on a clear vision
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If you don't understand SEO and you want to sell SEO, be prepared for a whole heap of pain. Because if you don't know what you're talking about, clients will see through it within five seconds flat and it will just end in disaster.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast, where we help web design and digital agency owners create abundance for themselves, their teams, and their communities. This podcast is proudly brought to you by E2M Solutions, the most trusted white label partner for digital agencies, to help you increase your capacity so you can serve more clients. Check them out at e2msolutions.com. This week we're joined by Simon Major, CEO of Practice Edge. Now, full transparency, Simon is in his fourth year in Mavericks Club, which is our mastermind for agencies, and he's joining us from his office in Diamond Creek here in Melbourne. In this episode, we discuss the impact of focusing on a clear vision, thanks to the Arnold Docker for inspiration there, referrals versus white label services, the problems with bloody chat GPT, Simon's journey from Cairo to digital agency owner, why he was quick to get coaching early in his career, and how he and his wife bought a building and built a team of 24 staff, all without having any kind of background in web or digital. I'm Troy Dean. Stay with us. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the agency hour, Simon Major. How are you, Simon?
SPEAKER_00Very well, thank you, Troy.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Thanks for joining us here. Now, for those that don't know, just tell us a little bit about um actually before you tell us a little bit about your background, where where are you based in the world?
SPEAKER_00Uh so we're in Diamond Creek, which is um about 30 K's north of Melbourne, northeast of Melbourne.
SPEAKER_03And you have how many staff in the building there in Diamond Creek?
SPEAKER_00Uh we've just maxed out at 13, including Carolyn and I. So that's that's all we've got capacity for at the moment. So we're gonna have to do some some des shuffling. But we've also got um uh probably another it must be another 11 um scattered around in in all parts of the world and also in Melbourne.
SPEAKER_03Great. And um and now I know one of the things we'll talk about your background a little bit, but I just want to unpack this for a second. One of the things that we've spoken about is how difficult it is to attract good talent in a location like Diamond Creek, which is 30 Ks out of the city. I've been to your office, we've been out to Diamond Creek, and it's bloody beautiful. I love Diamond Creek. It's uh I mean if you lived in Melbourne, you might describe it as a sleepy little hollow, but it's a beautiful part of the world. Um how the people that work out there, are they all local or are they are there some people commuting?
SPEAKER_00I'll tell you a funny story. So yesterday I I went in to visit another very, very large agency owner in Melbourne, um, one of the biggest. And I sat down with him for an hour and picked his brain and asked him a lot of questions. And I took my SEO lead, him, Cam, and um we we actually, where we parked, we we drove straight past where he used to work, and he was telling me the story how he used to commute every day for an hour and a half in and an hour and a half out, three hours. And we're talking to this this guy about it, and I was telling him how one of the issues that we face at the moment is with recruitment, and I said, you know, it's a little bit different for you because you're in Peran, and and you know, it's a little bit easier to attract because that's where a lot of the digital marketing people are. However, I sort of looked at that and I said, Well, Cam, my um SELE, I said, he wouldn't want to come in here. He hated coming into Peran because he lived on the other side. And I said, I I probably just need to think, yeah, it has been a challenge to recruit from that perspective, but I need to reframe it and think, okay, so the people that I'm trying to attract are those people that live on you know the the north side of where we are, which is further away from that again, and focus on those people. So I'm gonna reframe that in my mind and say it's not a problem anymore. Um, it's just I have to attract the right person. So it it has been historically been a problem, but it no longer is because I've changed my mindset.
SPEAKER_03That's great. That's great. I want to talk about mindset a little bit, actually, because I'm halfway through the Arnold series, which you put me on to. My word far out. I'm dude, it's so inspiring, isn't it? Um yeah, so we will unpack that in a second. Um, all right, so so a little bit of context. How the hell did you get to be a digital marketing agency, predominantly for health practitioners based in Diamond Creek? What's your background? Where did you come from, and how did you end up here?
SPEAKER_00So, my um my first 15 years in in the the working world was as a chiropractor. So I graduated as a chiropractor in 1993. I worked for about 15 years, uh, and then halfway through practicing as a chiropractor, I did some entrepreneurial um work with a with a coach and and just really fell in love with that sort of um lifestyle and and and mindset and and just the ability to um just have leverage. Um, and so I was always focusing on that thing. And and when I finished Cairo, um, I wasn't thinking of moving into the digital marketing space. It was I was actually building up a another program on um GPS Turing, and I spent a year of my life and a lot of money and effort working through that, and it was a great product, and it still is, and I'll still work on it one day. But technology, you know, 15 years ago just wasn't there, the internet wasn't there to support downloading big files and things like that. So um I sort of did that for a little while and realized that wasn't where I wanted to go, and then I started building websites and things like that. Then I fell in with another, you know, big um Australian-based coach uh and did their um their client marketing. Um with SEO, I started to learn how to do that and you know, got involved in that side of the market. Um, and then it just exploded from there, and I, you know, I had five clients, ten clients, twenty clients, thirty clients. Um and that's I was doing all this from home, and so it was getting a little bit hard because I think at the stage I might have had you know 30 SEO clients and maybe you know a dozen or so Google Ads clients, and I was doing all by myself and I had someone working at home, and then we just decided that it just wasn't right. So I made my mind up that I was gonna go and get an office, and I looked that night, we found one, bought it the next day, and yeah, it was just it just was meant to happen, and it's been a great buy because um, you know, now I I can remember when we first came down here, we rattled in this place. You know, there was two of us in here, and it was a big, big place. Uh, and now it's it's like every square inch of the place is taken up. So, I mean, I'm I I um went to school in uh Rosanna and I live in a place called Kangaroo Ground, which is just up the road. So I'm 10 minutes away from home. Um, I enjoy this sort of lifestyle, I don't enjoy city traffic, it just doesn't do it for me. So I'm happy here. Most of my staff, well all my staff are very happy in the office uh outside of the cityscape. So yeah, started as a Cairo, uh got out of that, moved into this, and uh and then we just grew from there.
SPEAKER_03Great, love it. A couple of things I want to unpack here. You're halfway through your Cairo career, you have a practice, you're not working for someone else, right? You have your own Cairo practice. Did you have chiropractor working for you?
SPEAKER_00Uh for some stage I did, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. You you said that you started on the kind of the entrepreneurial journey working with a coach. Why? Like I I know plenty of people that start it, leave school, get a qualification or whatever, go into business, never even entertain the idea of hooking up the business coach because you know they think they've they've well, this is what I do now. I'm a chiropractor, earn, you know, 150, 200 grand a year, whatever it is. Why why were you what was it that was like, you know, there's there's got to be more here. I'm seeking leverage, I'm looking for something else. Why why do you think that was?
SPEAKER_00I honestly I I I can't remember what got me started with that coach. Um, I think I just saw something, and it was funny because I I saw something, it was a self-directed learning course, and I read the first book, and then I think I rang him up after that and said, I need to fast track this, I want to start something different. And that's when he had his coaching group, and I jumped into that and and you know did really well out of that, and then it sort of exposed me to a lot of things. That was when the internet was really fresh. I mean, we were we were building websites back then in first page and things like that, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I remember those days, yeah, yeah. Uh and so, and again, you you know, uh and so just to give people a little bit of context, because you said that you needed to get out of the house and you needed an office, so you went and had a look, and the next day you bought one, you sold your chiropractic uh clinic, right? Practice.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I sold the practice, I kept the building.
SPEAKER_03Right. Sold the practice, kept the building. So you sold the practice, so you were liquid, you had some money to buy this building to get out of home. At what point? Uh I know you and your wife quite well. We've travelled together, we've been overseas at our events, you know, we've we've hung out together and so I know you and Carolyn quite well. I'm interested in at what point you and Carolyn look at each other and go, This bloody doing SEO and Google ads for health practitioners is working. We've got lots of referrals coming in from the coach who specialise in that area. This is, we're gonna go all in on this because at that point you were trying a few different things and you know, you'd had the GPS app that didn't work. At what point did you kind of go, this is the thing that we're gonna do for the next 10 or 15 years? Was there a moment that you I mean you went and bought a bloody building, right? Was there a moment that you remember, okay, I'm focusing on this to the exclusion of all other activities and projects?
SPEAKER_00I think it was was just when we were able to stand our own two feet, we were getting great results, we we could see what was what was um ahead. We we just knew that the the the the transition between where we were and where I mean you can't have a home-based business and do what I'm doing now, you know, with 24 staff, it just doesn't work. Um so it was it was at the time that we decided to to buy the building. It was like we need to we need to ramp this up um and we need to to make a shift, and that was when it started.
SPEAKER_03Was it were you were you nervous? You someone once said to me uh a mortgage makes a man productive. Were you nervous when you bought the building and you kind of moved in there? Were you like, holy shit, now we've really got to put the foot on the pedal and get the skates on and keep these clients coming in? You weren't you weren't you weren't nervous about not having enough revenue to pay the bills?
SPEAKER_00No, because the cap Carol and I have always been property investors, so we own quite a lot of property. Um and for us it was just a a place to operate from, right? And it didn't really make any difference to us to have a property or not. Um it was just one of those things that we had enough clients, and I said, even if we don't get any new clients to resolve a being down here, um, it doesn't really make any difference because it gives us a space to actually launch and do the things that we needed to do. So it was never really a concern, didn't phase us.
SPEAKER_03And besides you and Carolyn, who was the first person that who was the first employee to come and work in the office with you?
SPEAKER_00Uh well that was a person um that was working at home. So she came down and worked, and then then I hired a um uh an SEO. Uh actually, no, I think I hired a graphic designer, and I can't remember the the transition, but it was all sort of a and this this is part of the the journey was that you know, as a chiropractor, I didn't have a background in web, I didn't have a background in in organization, and it was terrible in the early days. I mean, you know, it's only recently that we've we've structured our our programs um with with having other people do things. Um, and probably since I got into Mavericks, I think, but because that's when I started understanding the fact that I just couldn't keep growing this business without the organization that that I've that I've you know received from working in Mavs. But um yeah, it was it was just I had to um you know develop that um those skills over time because I had none of that um early days.
SPEAKER_03Uh full transparency for those listening, Mavericks Club is our mastermind for agency owners. Simon's been in Mavericks Club, I think I think you're in your fourth year now and is actually contributing to the community as a mentor around SEO. So that's what Simon's talking about when he mentions Mavericks Club. This is not an ad for Mavericks Club, but I'm definitely proud to say that uh myself and the team have had um a we've played a role in the growth of your agency and and definitely helped, and it's been really exciting for us to see that and experience that. Um when you and I first met, you were doing pretty well. You were you were up and about and you'd solved a lot of problems in the business. Why were you looking for a coach at that point?
SPEAKER_00It it was all around organization and structure. It's just and it was like having someone to having someone who's been there and is able to articulate the problems that I'm having. It's a little bit like now when I listen to someone when they're talking about SEO and the problems they're having with their agency. I can tell them what's wrong and why it's wrong and point them in the right direction because I've been there and I've experienced that and I've I've I've suffered that pain. Um so what I was looking for, and I didn't even know I was looking, I you just came uh up in a Facebook feed, and I thought, wow, I didn't even know there was such a thing as coaching for for agency owners, and that's when I made the call, and you know, the rest happened pretty quick. But um that was that that was the game changer for me because it helped me um you know get the help that I needed in order to be able to move forward and to be able to do the things that I just didn't know how to do. And I still don't know how to do a lot of it, but I I subscribe to the the Robert Kiyosaki thingy um where he said you don't have to be the smartest tool in um in the shed, you just have to have lots of really good people around you. So 100%. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03Who Who Not How uh Who Not How is a great book by Dan Sullivan. It's kind of a and you know it's interesting because you and I have spoken about this a lot. We've been on planes together, we've stayed in hotels in Tasmania, we went on a boat round Tasmania and caused a mutiny the next day and then went back and got drunk and sung karaoke together, it was awesome. Uh and we've talked about this a lot is that um, you know, every time you and I talk about something that's going on in the business that we're trying to fix, it usually comes down to the fact that we just don't have the we just don't have the right person in the right seat because the fastest way to solve a problem is to hire someone or or not even hire a new team member, but do what you did yesterday. Drive down to Melbourne and chat with one of the owners of one of the largest agencies in Melbourne and pick their brain and just tap into the network of people who have been there done it doesn't mean that they're all rainbows and unicorns. There are problems in every business, but if you surround yourself with people who have the battle scars and the war wounds and can impart a bit of experience and a bit of knowledge, it just fast tracks your results, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00And I think the other thing too, and this is this is the the um the feeling I got after having this conversation with this person yesterday, was that his agency, which is almost five times bigger than mine, it's a huge agency. Um he's got the same problems that I've got. And I didn't feel that bad. We're actually um doing really well in a lot of areas that that um you know I was really surprised at. But it's like you know, one of the things that that we spoke about was that you know when you hire juniors and things like that, that they always think the grass is greener on the other side, this agency must have all their shit together because they're doing all the right things and they're big and they're this. Everyone has problems. Um, and I think collectively, if and this is the thing I've noticed with Mavericks is that when we sit down and we all talk and we all suffer the same challenges, but having people and and getting the recognition that yes, that is a problem that we all face, and um, you just have to work out how you're going to deal with it best. And it's not always that there's a solution, it's just that what is the best way that you can you know apply yourself to deal with the problems that you face, and just a quick example is that uh everyone at the moment's having problems with recruitment. Um, and we made a decision, we we started um last year to to try and hire through a recruitment agency, and it was costing us a lot of money. I mean, we spent about 50 grand in the last sort of nine months, I think, recruiting. Um, and some of them have been great, some of them being really bad. Um, and so in the end, what we decided was that we're just gonna have a completely different shift in the way that we recruit now. The way we're gonna do it is we're gonna hire um juniors based on personality traits, attributes, and just the the sort of skill set that they bring to the table and the enthusiasm that they bring and and the the quest to want to learn, that's how we're gonna hire. And I'm happy to put them through the training and teach them all the right way rather than worrying about you know all the um bringing in the bad habits. So again, it's just a it's a shift, it's a challenge that we face. Um, I've been dealing with it for 12 months, we've made a decision, we're going down the junior route, we're gonna train and we're gonna put the time and effort and energy into them, we're gonna have more than we need, um, and and basically pick and choose the out of out of the bunch. And just it's just a we all face the same challenge.
SPEAKER_03Yep. And every and every every um, you know, one of my favourite sayings is take it, tweak it, make it your own, or season to taste, right? And I've said this before, just because someone comes and I mean, just because you went and spoke to this person yesterday doesn't mean that you can take what he's doing and come back and apply it exactly to your business and it's gonna work. There are nuances, there are things that you need to every business has its own DNA and its own culture and its own collection of energy amongst the staff and the team and the clients. And so every solution, there are best practices, right? And I like to think that we kind of do 70% of the heavy lifting for you in Mavericks Club, not only just from our curriculum and our coaches, but also just connecting with the other agency owners, right? But you've then got to go back to your agency and say, okay, well, that might work for you know Matt or Mara, but it's not gonna work here, and here's why. But I can take that bit and I can take that bit and I can apply it, and then you find your own way through it. There's not, I don't think there's one boilerplate, you know. As I said, there are best practices and frameworks, but you've got to you've got to season it to taste to make it work for your agency.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. And and look, there were differences in things that we do, and I wouldn't choose to do the model he's doing. Um, I choose to do my own the way that we're doing it based on the understanding and the learnings that I've had and and the books that I've read. Um and they're working for us. And I choose to continue to do that because I think that's the best way.
SPEAKER_03A couple of things I want to touch on. I want to talk about SEO because one of the, you know, SEO, a lot of a lot of people in our world, in our community, end up doing SEO because their clients, once they build a website, we come, you know, large part of our c community and and following an audience are come from the WordPress kind of web design world, and they end up getting into SEO because their clients are asking them, well, how do we get more traffic? How do we get onto page one of Google? What do you see? If I came to you now and said, All right, Simon, I'm building websites for clients and they're starting to ask about SEO, what are the first two or three things you'd tell me to think about or be aware of before I start offering SEO to clients?
SPEAKER_00That's a really good question. It's something I'm really passionate about. Um, because and I know you you teach through Mavericks, um, not to go back to Mavericks again, but I know my experience has been that a lot of people are looking for recurring revenue, and so they naturally gravitate towards marketing because it's on a retainer. And sure, you can generate great uh revenue from SEO, but my number one advice is that if you don't understand SEO and you want to sell SEO, um be prepared for a whole heap of pain. Because if you don't know what you're talking about, clients will see through it within five seconds flat and it will just end in disaster. And so my suggestion would be that there's a few ways you can go. Um, you either teach yourself how to do it and do it really well and have enough knowledge to be able to do it either yourself or employ someone to be able to do it, you employ someone to do it and manage it um the way that needs to be done, or you just simply outsource it, right? Um and you tell the client you're outsourcing or you white label, you do something like that. But if someone is going to um manage SEO and they're selling it to clients and the clients and they're the front end of that conversation, if you don't know what you're talking about, they will see through you within so fast. And um you just, you know, one of my favorite sayings is oh, what a tangled web would we when first we practice two to see. It's a bit like if you start bullshitting someone about you know the benefits or what's happening, or you know, you make promises you can't keep, um, you're gonna have a churn problem beyond control. Um, and it'll just be a disaster. So you either need to know what you're doing um or you outsource, preferably as a referral model and just take a clip. Um, but I would not be recommending that if you don't know anything about it, um, don't try and wing it, don't try and give it to someone that um you're just leaving it all up to them to manage the entire process because you just don't know what you're getting back. And and you know, it's just gonna end in disaster. So I think make sure you understand exactly what you're doing, stick to your lane. Um, and you know, we're we're having a thing at the moment where we're saying um basically um we have a very strong vision about where we're heading and what we're going to offer, but we're making a huge qualitative shift in the way that we offer things because that's the big difference in the SEO world. Every man his dog's offering SEO. Why would someone choose me over the other person? And what we're doing is we're going to build the highest quality um offering that we can in order to be able to make sure that people are getting the absolute best from um people that live, breathe, and um, you know, run their life basically through SEO. It's just the way we need to do it.
SPEAKER_03When I first uh it's all good advice. When I first started out. I practiced SEO on a couple of clients. I didn't charge them. I just said, look, full transparency. I reckon I can get you more traffic and I can increase your rankings on Google. I'm not going to charge you for the next three months because it might not work. I promise I won't do any damage, but let me just figure it out. And I did figure it out and I was doing it myself. And this is a long time ago. It was a lot easier back in 2007, 2008. And I was also doing it on my own website for my own agency, Tonto Digital, and my own Troy Dean website. And I was having some success. I figured out pretty quickly that I didn't want to do it long term because it was quite repetitive work. And so I found a great partner. I found a great SEO partner offshore who not only now because I'd educated myself enough, I knew the questions to ask, I knew the work to look at. I knew, and it doesn't matter where the partner was, right? If you're outsourcing to a partner, whether they're white label or you're just referring, and we can talk about the differences in those models in a second. I knew what to look for and I knew whether or not they were doing a good job because I'd educated, I'd spent three months learning it, right? And I learned most of it through Rand Fishkin at Moz back in the day. He would have his whiteboard Fridays and they had amazing resources there, and I learned a lot from there. But what happened, and what I didn't bank on, is that my white label partner actually educated me on SEO over the sort of, I don't know how long it was I worked with them, a couple of years before I got out of the agency. I learned more from them about SEO than I learned from doing my own research because they would just constantly educate me about what was happening and the changes to the algorithm. And they were a really good white label partner. I think the mistake you can make is you just outsource it to a white label partner and you don't have any idea what they're doing, and you just blindly trust that they know what they're doing, and not everyone knows what they're doing. And there are a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of charlatans out there who will, you know, um sell you SEO and then just not deliver. I want to talk about the difference between white label and referral, just to clarify for people. Um, and I know you and I have you and I have had this conversation, and I do also want to talk about E2M in a second because they're a white label partner and they also happen to be the um sponsor of this podcast. Referral is where I say, hey, look, I don't do SEO anymore, but go and see my friend Simon at Practice Edge. They're a great SEO company, they'll look after you, they'll get you the best results. And I refer that client to you. Maybe I get a referral fee, maybe I don't. In this case, I don't, you don't pay me referral fees, I don't care about that, but I just want clients to get the best outcome, right? Whereas a white label partner is someone who kind of works under your brand or doesn't or doesn't interact with the client at all, right? What's what what's your preference and what do you see the mistakes are for in both of those models?
SPEAKER_00I mean, my preference um is obviously referral-based because I have a team out there that can deliver and manage the communication and and the the sort of the client, manage the client. Um white label is this is this is what I was talking about. If you don't understand what you're doing and you're a white and you've got what people do in white label under you, you have to be able to relate back to the client what's happening. And if something goes wrong, you have to be able to explain what's happening or potentially offer solutions. Um, because the white label partner, it's not necessarily always their job to be um prescriptive in what they're doing. They they will they manage a set of tasks and they will do those tasks typically really, really well. Strategically, some of the more challenging um SEO campaigns require a lot of thought. And so that's where I think a lot of this gets stuck. But if you've got a client and they're bringing up saying, My conversions have dropped, and this and that, you'll get found out very quickly that you don't know what you're doing. They're saying, Well, let's have a look at Google Analytics and show me what's happening here, and do you've got to manage that communication if you're white. If you are referring, you're still taking a little bit of the clip because you're getting a referral fee. But you you're you're basically saying to your client, listen, I trust this person, they do a great job. Let them manage your your SEO for you. And then they're they're managing the entire thing. It's very, very hard to talk about something that you're not fully versed in. Yeah, and that's that's my concern with with white labor. If you understand it, you will not have a problem. That's right. You know when the guys are doing a good job. But if you don't understand it, you won't know what they're doing, you won't know the impact of you know the keywords that are being selected, the the content that's being provided, the technical audits that are being done, the backlinking that's being done. You know, you won't understand any of that. And that's where it really comes into play. You have to understand that that technical and you know what is being done aspect of the campaign in order to be able to know if you're getting really good. That's my big concern with the two models.
SPEAKER_03And again, for full transparency, back in the day when I was running my agency, I had a white label partner who was doing all my SEO, but I knew enough and I had report automated reporting set up through what's now called agency analytics. Back then it was called my SEO tour when they first launched. And agency analytics would automatically send a PDF to my clients every month, every week. Sorry, I would also get a copy of that report. I'd glance at it, I knew what was happening, I could see the progress that was being made. My white label partner never interacted with my clients. I interacted with my clients, but I knew enough to talk them through the strategy and answer any questions. My white label partner were actually doing all the tasks. Um But nowadays I don't have a white label partner because I don't have a lot of I'm not interested in managing those relationships with the clients. I have a handful of private coaching clients that I would send to a referral partner because I don't want to have those conversations. I just want to send them off and know that they're gonna get a great outcome. My job is to say, I think at this point in time it's worth you doing SEO. I think it's worth playing the long game. Uh, go and talk to Simon or Adam and they'll sort you out. Um, I'm not interested in being the one talking through the SEO strategy every month. So it's just a different model. And I think there are there's room for both.
SPEAKER_00100% there's room for both. All I'm saying is if you're going to go down the white label pathway, just make sure you understand it because otherwise you will end up with churn. Um you'll end up with really awkward conversations when you when you're just out of your comfort zone because you're not familiar with what you're doing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like me, if someone said to me, explain to me what's happening in the code here, I wouldn't have a clue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, I do want to talk quickly about E2M. We met Manish up at Mavcon. They're a white, they're all um, just to let people know, they are the sponsor of this podcast. They're a white, they're it's a new relationship we've got with them. They're a white label partner that do essentially web dev in WordPress or Shopify as well as SEO and content writing. Uh, they have Manish has got 180 full-time staff in a 20,000 square foot new office that they've uh acquired. Dude, I I I didn't sleep after I learned that. I was I'm losing sleep for him. The idea of managing 180 staff. Uh what was your what was your takeaway from meeting Manish at Mavcon?
SPEAKER_00He's a really smart, lovely guy. Um, really, really switched on. He cares about his team, he cares about business, he cares about results. He's one of the good guys. And um, it was a pleasure to meet um uh Manish and his team. Um and look, I I spoke SEO with Shal as well, he's SEO lead. Uh he's a smart cookie, they're they're really good guys. Um, and this is one of those perfect situations where where what I would say is, you know, if you want a right-labeled partner for SEO um and you understand how SEO works and you can have communication with clients, then by all means, you know, give these guys a go because they'll do the right thing by you. Um so yeah, no, that was that was one of the great highlights of of the uh the most recent Mavcon was to meet Manish and and just hear his perspective on business and how he how he operates, and um, you know, it was it was a real pleasure.
SPEAKER_03I was uh I was crooked actually uh during Mavcon. I came down with the flu, not the man flu, ladies and gentlemen, the real flu. I was very sick. I was in bed, and I was supposed to interview Manish on stage, and Matt Jones, one of our members, who's also a podcaster, he took the mantle. He has, no, right, mate, you stay in bed, I'll get up and I'll interview Manish. It was supposed to be a half-hour spot. I heard that it went for like an hour and a half because people just kept asking questions.
SPEAKER_00The funny thing was the day before that, what brought that on was the day before that, Matt and I jumped out of a session early and we went out and had a drink down by the pool with Manish, and we we had basically the same conversation the day before, and we were just blown away. And then Matt Matt obviously got talking to someone um and and said, Oh, look, we've got to get him up on stage, and and that's how that all came about. But we just sat there, Matt and I just sat there and listened to him, and it was like, you know, this is really cool. You're a really good good operator.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Hey, um, I want to talk about uh Arnold for a second, mate. If for those of you haven't seen it, it's a three-part doco on Netflix about Arnold Schwarzenegger. Uh, part one is the athlete, part two is the actor, and part three is the American. I've done The Athlete and the Actor. I'm about to uh watch part three uh over the next couple of days. Um something he said, and thanks to you for putting me onto it, because you you you dropped a message. I'm not I won't read the message, but you dropped a message in Slack in our squadron channel after watching the Arnold Docko, and mate, you were on fire. I've never I've known you for over four years now. I've never seen you or heard you so motivated and so pumped and so clear. What what was it about the Arnold Docko that that has that has shifted something for you? Because actually, before you answer that question, let's let's be real here, right? Running a business, how long have you had Practice Edge now? How long have you been doing this?
SPEAKER_00Um, well, Practice Edge has been running for 20 years, but the digital marketing side of it close to 10.
SPEAKER_03Okay. How many times have you thought about just burning it to the ground and going and doing something else?
unknownSeveral.
SPEAKER_03Several, right? It happens. Same. I've agency Maverick started out as WP Elevation. We've we turned 10 in May this year, right? Uh there have been several times where I've said to my wife, I'm just gonna go and get a job, and she always laughed. The joke is, the joke is you wouldn't make it to lunchtime. But there are so many, there are so many days, weeks, months, where you just lose your mojo, right? And it's like, I just what am I doing? How did I get here? And so uh we I you and I have seen each other go through that. What what happened when you watched Arnold that shifted something in you that has just given you such focus and such motivation?
SPEAKER_00So a little little context. So my brother and I, um, when I was about 12 or 13, we used to go and go down to the gym. My brother's riding the bodybuilding, and um, we used to go down to the gym. We used to go down to the gym called Finlay's in um um uh Camberwell, and we used to drive down there and we'd work out and um we'd come home and we'd you know be exhausted, and it was it was a great memory and part of our life. And at the same time, that was when Arnold was was doing all of his stuff and we're watching Pumping Iron and those sorts of things, and we'd go down to the gym and we'd talk in Arnold voice and all these sorts of things, and we just we just had the best time, it was such good fun, and uh you know, we'd be struggling under the bench press, and we'd say, boom, and um, so anyway, it was just so Colin, my brother, he's always been into Arnold and I think he's met him actually paid the ransom and and shook his hand and that sort of stuff. But um, when this came out, I I I looked at it and I thought, oh yeah, I want to watch that. And I I struggle sometimes for motivation, certainly with my health. And I I I'm I'm quite lazy. I was quite lazy, and I didn't do the walking things that I needed to do. So I've I've been looking for for something to just give me that spark. And when I watched Arnold, and he just gets up there, and it I mean, he's a typical sort of you know, German, Austrian type guy. There's no bullshit, right? There's just they they they tell it as it is, and it's like this is the way we do it. But he got up there and and the way he spoke was just so plain and simple, have a vision and work hard, no excuses, just results. And it just resonated, and it just it it just it said to me, stop procrastinating, just get up and do it. And then since then I've been on my screensaver south now, I've taken the kids off. Now I've got Arnold on my screen. My team thought it was pretty funny the other day. And Nathan, who's my general manager, made me a um a little Arnold, he's got a 3D printer, he made me a little Arnold be painted at goal and whatever, it's in my in my office now. But um I I it just it hit a chord, it struck a chord, yeah, and it was more about the vision, yeah, and the and the don't don't stop until you achieve the result attitude.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's what for me, and I haven't I I I missed my walk yesterday for the first time in three weeks because I had to go into this the city, and then we went out to dinner last night, and I just didn't get home in time. Um, I'll go for my walk today and then I'll go home tonight and I'll jump on the treadmill. I've done that every day since. Um, I'm eating better, I'm thinking better, I'm motivated. Um, and it was just the thing. And and the thing is that not everyone's gonna watch Arnold and have the same revelation that I've had, right? It's just about finding something that actually gives you that internal motivation to say, I need to do the things I need to do. And it's even even one of the other things I I say is that I don't look at at problems and failure now as a failure. I look at them as an opportunity to do better. And I think if something's happened and it's bad, then okay, what did I learn from this? What can I do better next time to stop from happening? If we lose a client, um, we now have what's called a um a um uh post-mortem meeting. And what we do is we sit down and say, right, what happened? Why did they leave? Why were they unhappy? What can we do better? Where in the process can we improve it in order to make this stronger for next time? And so it's just changed that the the failures are no longer failures, they're an opportunity to do better. Um, I give myself, if something happens bad, I give myself a day to to sort of sulk, and I say, get on with it, move, just forget about it, you can't change it. And this is all what Arnold says, and that's the way he just has a really and look, not everyone can be as motivated as what he is. He's he's a weapon. Um I think that you know one of the things that you saw was that in the um the politician one when he actually he went off to the you know the Californian people, they they sort of they they went off him for a while, and he realized he had to pull back and reflect and understand what was going on. But it was it's the same thing. He he realized something wasn't working. He said, Right, I've got to change it, I've got to make it better. Same as when his cars were too small when he lost Mr. Universe or Mr. Olympia for the first time, and he came second. They said, Well, your cars are too small, you're out of proportion. He said, Right, I'm gonna turn my worst asset into my best. It's just a mindset.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 100%. There's there's a couple of things, a couple of my observations. I've only watched the first two parts, a couple of observations. One, he he's so clear with his vision, yeah, right? He uh without ruining it, he he basically saw the original Hercules film and just fell in love with the guy's body because it was this is like it's a work of art. This guy's body's a work of art. How can you have that much control over your body? And Arnold was a scrawny little kid, he wasn't a big kid. In fact, his brother was bigger and more muscular. So Arnold manufactured that body from nothing, but he was so clear in his vision. It was like, uh, I I'm gonna be a bodybuilder. And then but the very early it was like, I'm going to America. His vision then changed over time. He after he conquered everything in bodybuilding, he said, Okay, well now I'm gonna be a leading man in the movies because he wanted to be Hercules, he wanted to be the star, right? Um the self-belief that he has given his upbringing, which was not good, the self-belief he has is unbelievable. And to have the vision is one thing, but then to have the self-belief to manifest it is in was is absolutely remarkable. And there's one thing he said when there's the the interviewer actually doesn't talk throughout the whole thing, but the interviewer says something once he says, Why didn't you give up? After his first film, he didn't work for five years because it was a flop. He said, Why didn't you give up? And Arnold just looks at him and says, Nowhere in my vision did it say to give up. It's yeah, I mean that that I the I I looked at my wife when he said that line and was just like I was dumbfounded. It was like he's so true to his vision, right? Um the other thing that he mentioned is his his mother-in-law, uh, who was a Kennedy, which it was a Shriver who married into the Kennedy family, Maria Shriver's uh mother. She one of her f favorite sayings, or the thing she said all the time is let's just move forward, let's move forward, let's just move forward, let's just move forward, just move forward, just move forward. There's no point looking in the rear vision mirror. It's okay to reflect, but you can't change what's happened in the past, so just keep moving forward.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I think the the other thing, too, that he did, he said, you know, he worked on his acting skills and he and and they all said um you're too big and your accent's too too strong to be able to be successful. And he said, after he did um uh pumping iron, then he did something else, but he said then it became an asset. He says they loved your size and they loved the accent. He turned it down, he just turned it around and made it work for him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00And so he just reframed. Yeah, and that's what I think is so compelling about this whole thing. It's about having the vision. And that's the same with what we have at the moment. I've reformed my vision, I've reformed my role because I've taken away all the things that I was doing. Um, and now I don't have to focus on those. Now I'm focusing on business and business alone, and the vision, and the vision is to be the best healthcare um search provider in Australia. That's the vision.
SPEAKER_03That's good. I love it. That's new, that's a new articulation of your vision, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So basically, yeah, it is it is about that two-year vision to just be the strongest of what we do. And I've I've mapped out how it's gonna happen, how it's gonna work, and now I'm working through all the things I need to do in order to be able to get there. And it's not that hard. Um about creating how do you you and I have talked about this a lot.
SPEAKER_03How do you avoid distraction over the next two years? How do you how do you avoid you know, all the shiny widgets that are gonna come up? Because they do all the time.
SPEAKER_00Uh well. And look, some have come up recently, and it it's about segmentation for me. So it's about saying when I get to work, I do this, um, and these are the things I need to do. And I've got my CEO role mapped out, and I come in and every morning I look at it and I say, right, recruitment, how am I going with this? Training, how am I going with this? Um, you know, my pro forma, how how is that looking? Have I done my expenses and financial intelligence, uh, my sales and marketing? How are we on track with that? I've built myself a dashboard, and I just keep focused on those things and I do those things every day, and I make sure that I'm I'm servicing that role. How's the team going? You know, do I need to have a chat with the team or do I need to call the new staff member and see how she's going? Um, they're the things that I focus on for that role. And then I've got other times where I say, right, what's my role outside of Practice Edge? What do I need to do there? Um, but I also have um other things that I do, which is how am I functioning as a father, how am I functioning as a husband, how am I doing financially? And I write down what I need to be doing, and I keep an eye on those things. And I and I often say to my wife, I say, How have I done this week? And I'll get feedback. I want the feedback. If I'm if I'm sucking at doing something, tell me. Because I want to get better.
SPEAKER_03It's good, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00And so it for me again, it's about having the vision and the clarity on the vision. And is this bringing me closer to my vision? If not, then it's probably not going to happen. It's it's funny because for me, when I have time, when I have the time, the ability to think, it's very dangerous for me because I start to think of lots and lots of things. And I know you're the same, and you've got to have that clarity. The yardstick I use, is this bringing me closer to that vision? Is this bringing me closer to that goal? And if it's not, then it gets left behind.
SPEAKER_03Because it is important to explore other things, right? Because that's how you learn, explore other opportunities and open your mind. But it's also a balance between that and staying really focused and going, all right, well, that's that's good, but it's on the someday maybe list. Maybe someday we'll get to it. But at the moment, we're just staying focused on this.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, one of the things that you've taught me um is to only have three major projects going on the time. I got about six.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I know you you would have that.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's better than when we first met, you had about 15.
SPEAKER_00So they're probably still on the list somewhere. But like I've got 15 too. So I that's right. You do yes, that's right. I'm working on some really cool stuff at the moment with um where we're rebuilding how we how we do a certain type of page um and how we create uniqueness within that page for SEO purposes and how we integrate chat GPT. And it's just some really cool stuff, and it's exciting, and it gets the team excited, and and and I enjoy doing that stuff, but it's it's only when I can have the time to think and to focus that I get the ability to do that.
SPEAKER_03Is uh I'm glad you mentioned Chat GPT. Is AI gonna put anyone out of a job, do you think?
SPEAKER_00I've got a different view on it, and I believe that it is going to make our job easier. But what it's going to do, it's going to separate the people that understand from the people that don't, and the people that rely on Chat GPT to run their SEO campaigns, that's going to work for a period of time because it's going to give them some small wins. But when the when the going gets tough, they're not going to know how to how to react to that because they haven't developed the skills. If a robot's telling you how to do something, how to structure something, when something goes wrong and the robot can't tell you, what are you going to do then?
SPEAKER_03That's right. Yeah, that's right. We use Chat GPT a lot here for inspiration. I kind of use it to get kind of get ideas. We came up with a great idea yesterday, which we're going to run into a video. Now, we're not using any of the words that Chat GPT generated in this video. I've written the words, but there was an idea, there was a theme that came up from ChatGPT. I'm like, that's a good idea. The thing that annoys me about AI is the lack of opinion in the content that it produces. It's like it's trying to keep everyone happy all of the time. I'm trying to get it pissed off with me. I'm like, come on, like, have some balls, have an opinion. It just doesn't have an axe to grind. And I can see I see posts on Facebook from coaches and agency owners, and I'm I have to stop myself from going, oh yeah, another chat GPT post because it's so fucking boring and vanilla and beige and it's just wet. There's no opinion in it.
SPEAKER_00It's one of my concerns as well is that you know, as as more AI content comes on the internet and AI is scraped in order to use that content, that the it's going to become like a photocopy of a photocopy. It's just going to become over time. Um and the original thought process, again, we'll run to the shop, rise to the top. And so this is this is this the strategy that I'm taking with my agency at the moment is that, and this comes from a book that I recently read, um, which some smart guy told me to read uh 10x is easier than 2x. And I I love that book because it followed on perfectly from what Arnold had said, which was about having a vision. What where do you want to go, what do you want to do, think differently in order to go 10x rather than 2x. It's not about working harder, it's about working smarter, and it's about making a quality shift. And that's the big difference. Quality is not from writing chat GPT articles. Quality can be used, I mean, chat GPT can be used to inspire and to create some sort of framework or you know, fill in the gaps type thing. But the actual thought process has to come from someone that's solving a problem. Chat GPT is just answering a question, it doesn't really go that deep. So it's good, but use it sparingly and be prepared to actually think a little bit deeper because that's what people want. And people pay for you to think, not for you to do.
SPEAKER_03That's right. A hundred percent. Thank you very much. Get paid to think, not do. I'm going all in on human and being opinionated, and the opinion is backed up with experience and data and war wounds and battle scars because I've been doing this a fucking long time, and we've helped a lot of people, we've helped a lot of agencies get great results, and I'm not ashamed of it. I'm bloody proud of the work that we do here, and everyone else is gonna just churn out. I mean, there are people selling courses on how to use Chat GPT to start and create your own courses and coaching programs and sell them and be completely hands-off. I'm like, oh, for God's sake. I'm going all in on being the opinionated human. I mean, you know, uh our whole DNA is is around being a maverick, which is being someone who walks at the beat of their own drum and is an independent free thinker and and and goes against the grain. So uh I think Chat GPT and AI has its place, it's good for inspiration. Um, but you know, uh I think you we human beings want to uh we want leaders, we want to follow a leader like Arnold, right? Uh love him or hate him. Uh we we we want to follow a leader, and leaders are opinionated and they have the balls to stand by their opinion and say, this is the way it needs to be, and here's why. I'm okay to be challenged on it, but I'm not going to be uh meek and quiet about my opinion because I've got the results to back it up.
SPEAKER_00Correct.
SPEAKER_03Love it. Um uh we're almost out of time. Uh in fact, this has been one of the longer episodes of the agency hour, even though we call it the agency hour. We typically try to keep these things to about 40 minutes. Hey, this has been awesome. Uh what one of the if what's been the what's been the biggest measurable takeaway from your three and a half or four years in Mavericks Club? How like what's been if you could go, well, here's the one greatest thing that we've I've personally got out of it, what do you think that is? I've totally put you on the spot here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, look, there's this there's so much. I mean, I started so naive and and um I mean when I look back, most of the things that that are running in my business now have s had some sort of um uh inspiration from what I've learned from Mavericks. Probably the community. I think I think having the community, having you, um, and having always having that little bit extra to aim towards. Um I think that's what motivates me and keeps me going. And and and even the you know, the new thought that we're talking about, you're talking about, which is in in you know, growth as opposed to just doing commodity type stuff, it's like there's continually challenges to to keep moving forward. Because if you're not moving forward, you you're stagnant and and you get a big stag. And so for me, it's probably continually being challenged with something new to reinvent the way that I might be doing some things, or it's being exposed to 10x is easier than 2x. Because those books um they're they're amazing. Like I didn't the the Almanac one, I didn't really get much out of that, didn't enjoy that one. 10x was amazing, and then I started watching Jim Rohn when I was on the uh treadmill, and I reread The Richest Man in Babylon. Um I read that 25 years ago.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's good.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I'm just about to start reading, I've got some other books in there which I'm gonna start reading again. But um, I think it's it's just the continual striving to do something better that I think is what for me keeps me going and keeps me. I'm still hungry. Yeah, I'm still very now with my new sense of motivation and my vision, which I think is the greatest thing that I've that I've been able to articulate over the last um month, um, and my CEO role, um that's it's just giving me such clarity, and it's about just looking forward and just moving forward. There's just one thing I want to mention quickly from um the lesson I learned in um 10x and Z and 2X. It talks about the gap and the gain. That's a really important thing. Because the people tend to focus on how far they've got to travel, how far they've got to go in order to reach their goals. And that they the the problem with with that sort of model is that if you're looking for the horizon where you want to go, you never get there. And so it always feels like it's a it's a distance too far. So instead of focusing on where you're going, which is important, also reflect on what you've gained. And so where you started to where you are now are two very important um sort of areas that you need to look at and say, look at how much I've achieved, not how much there is to go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so that was one of the other big, big lessons that I learned because sometimes I beat myself up and say, Oh, I've still got to do this, I've still got to do that, and all the rest of it. And we haven't been able to achieve this. Now I focus more on what I've been able to achieve from when I started and all the different things. I've looked back on Mavericks. I mean, I could be you know, 20 things that I've achieved from there. Um, and there's still things to go. But I actually believe that the gain that I've made is huge, and the gap that I have is very much narrowing because I've achieved so much.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's such an important distinction, and you know the the they you know, the saying like what fires together wires together, right? So if you think about something long enough and your neurons keep firing on that, they will wire together, and that's the whole kind of thinking grow rich philosophy is around that is that you can't. I mean, and Arnold's a great example of that, is that you can manifest things. If you just think about something long enough and focus on it long enough, you will take enough action to to bring it into a reality. And the reality might be different from what you imagined, right? Um, the gain and the gap and the gain is such an important concept, I think, because if you focus on the gap, you'll actually manifest more gap, right? And you're right, you can never reach the horizon because as soon as you get close, it moves. You can never this is why the self-development and the goal setting and the weight loss industry are worth billions of dollars a year and always will be, because they're selling an ideal, and you'll never reach the ideal because as soon as you get close, your ideal changes. So you can never actually reach it. Whereas if you focus on the gain, you'll manifest more gain because that's what you're thinking about. That's why gratitude, just a simple gratitude practice for me every day is so important. I could I could talk to you, I mean, and we do, we talk about this stuff all the time, and I'm glad that we've managed to capture some of it on a podcast. I think this is going to be super helpful for people. Um, dude, it's been a pleasure having you in the Mavericks Club community. I'm so glad we crossed paths four years ago, uh, whenever it was, and I'm so glad that um your wife Carolyn insisted on coming down to the office and meeting me before you joined Mavericks Club to make sure I wasn't a dickhead. Uh well done for doing your due diligence. It's been awesome to get to know you and to have you around, and thanks for coming and sharing a bit of your story on the Agency Hour Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, likewise, mate. I it's it's been a uh good four years. I've enjoyed every minute of it, and uh, I still get um still get motivated by the things that you talk about. So thank you, and um, yeah, it's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Thanks, Simon.
SPEAKER_00Good, mate.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for listening to the Agency Hour Podcast and a massive thanks to Simon Major. I always love catching up with your brother, and I always learn something whenever we chat. Special thanks to E2M Solutions for becoming the exclusive sponsor of the Agency Hour Podcast. If you need to increase your bandwidth and capacity so you can serve more clients and grow your recurring revenue, then please go to e2msolutions.com and tell them that you came from Agency Mavericks and they will get you sorted. Okay, folks, don't forget to subscribe and please share this with anyone who you think may need to hear it. Now, are you close to burning out from the day-to-day of running your agency and want to grow your recurring revenue without actually having to do more work for your clients? Then maybe we should have a chat. I guarantee you are sitting on your agency's most valuable asset and you're just not getting paid for it. If you'd like to know how this works, click the link near this episode and book a time to have a quick chat with our team. We'll have a very short chat to see if we can actually help you, and if we can, we'll explain the next steps. You should know though that this is not for everyone, and unfortunately, we are very particular about who we work with, so chances are we won't be able to work with you. That's just the reality, because we only like working with clients where we know we can hit a home run. So if you do book a time to chat without sending, please know it's not a sales call. I just want to be clear about this. It's just a very quick chat to see if we can actually help you. If we can't, we'll explain why, hopefully, point you in the right direction, and we'll part ways as friends. If we can, we'll explain the next steps. So click the link and let's get to work.