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The Agency Hour
How To Be an Effective Leader
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As a leader, there are two personalities you have. One is individual you and then there is an organization, right? So there is a one framework which I always uh follow and tell people that you know choose the non-emotional response to any given situation and see how much easier your life becomes.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast. Hey, if you're a web designer digital agency owner looking to create abundance for yourself, your team, and your community, you're in the right place. Today we're joined by Manish Dudoregia, founder and CEO of E2M Solutions, the most trusted white label partner for digital agencies. Manish manages a team of 180 staff who all work in the same building. You heard that right. 180. It hits my brain and keeps me up at night just thinking about it. In this episode, we discuss how to increase activity rates. Why apple products are designed in California, manufactured in China, and the secret to managing a massive team like E2M. We also discuss the importance of formatting communication with your team, giving your team permission to make mistakes in order to grow, and much more. I'm Troy Lean. Stay with us. Alright, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the agency hour. Manish Duturigia from E2M Solutions. Hey Manish, how are you, my friend?
SPEAKER_00Hey Troy, I'm good. How about you?
SPEAKER_03I'm very well. Thank you so much for being up at 4.30 in the morning to join us here on the Agency Hour. I really appreciate your time and your effort. And also I want to publicly say I really appreciate E2M sponsorship of the Agency Hour podcast because it allows us to frankly spend more time making this a better quality podcast for our audience. And I really appreciate everything that you guys are doing for our community. So thank you so much for that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Thank you for having me on the show. It's always great to speak with you, connect with you. And yeah, I love supporting Agency Mavericks community. I think you know you and team are doing amazing stuff for agencies to help them scale. So it's a privilege, definitely.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Now, for the for those that don't know, just give them the sort of too long didn't read version of who you are, how you started E2M, and what E2M does exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm the founder and uh CEO of E2M. Uh so I started E2M uh 11 years back uh in 2012. So yeah, next month we are gonna complete 11 years.
SPEAKER_03Happy birthday.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. And uh I think you know, I mean, when I started E2M, it wasn't like only uh agency focused, it wasn't like just white level. Uh initially we were just doing literally everything. And initially we started as an SEO agency. Uh later in the business we realized okay, there is a there is a great opportunity, there is a great gap to fill where there are a lot of agency businesses, you know. They really want to scale their agency business and and focus on growth and really do not want to go through the pain of like oppressions, hiring, uh, vetting, firing, and and everything, execution side. And that's where they are always looking for a uh reliable team to execute the projects and deliver to their clients on time. So we found a sweet spot that okay, let's just be agency focused and uh uh you know just be a white level partner. So that's how you know, and then obviously rest is the history of that is a lot happened uh over the course of last year. But to give you a high-level idea, yeah, uh, you know, we work as a white-level partner uh for agencies, so we help them solve like bandwidth and capacity problems. And yeah, as we uh speak, uh you know, we work with like 150 plus agencies all across this US, Canada, UK, and obviously Australia as well. Uh in fact, we onboarded like uh seven to eight new agencies from Australia in the last two, three months itself. Wow, and yeah, we got a team of like uh 180 plus people.
SPEAKER_03Wow. That's it's I I've said this before to um entrepreneurs who have large teams, uh, but it's true. I lose sleep at night worrying about how you manage 180 people. Like it just blows my mind that the kind of growth and I don't I don't know how you have how do you keep 180 people moving, like doing the right thing at the right time and keeping them on track? Like what is I know you've been very deliberate with the culture that you've built at E2M. What do you think the secret is? Like if someone's starting out and they've got a few team members and things are starting to go sideways, what's the secret to getting everyone on the same page?
SPEAKER_00I think you know, when you when you want to scale, it is very obvious that yeah, you just have to create a mindset that okay, you have to give up your you know driving seat, right? You are just have to put someone else behind the steering, behind the wheel. It's not something you can drive all the time, otherwise you cannot scale, right? So, and obviously the first thing the the fear comes to your mind that okay, what if the person will not be doing exactly how am I doing, right? And that's the that's the fear always stops you from putting someone else behind the wheel, and that's the way you know you are stopping your growth. So I think it is inevitable that uh, you know, if you're gonna put someone at your spot, they are gonna make the mistake, right? But that's the process, that's the game, right? The question is like how many minimum mistakes they are making, right? So that's where like you know, you have the right people at the right place. So it that's super super important, like who you are putting at what position, right? And so your your core leadership uh team plays a huge, huge role. And and then yeah, you know, having the right set of processes uh at place, and super, super important that uh you know uh you the commit the leadership team you are building, they are working very closely with you and uh they're executing the way you want, like your vision, they understand your vision, you know. Uh and those are the very, very key people because when you have such a when you want to build such a large team, obviously there are so many things you won't be able to control. There are so many small, small decisions you cannot be involved absolutely on a day-to-day basis, right? So uh it took a time, it's not an overnight process at all. I mean, uh obviously it took like over a decade, right? So passions is uh uh the most important thing where and it you also fail. It's not something that uh I did everything right, right? I I had a wrong position people at the wrong positions, and then I learned and mistake. So I think it's super, super important that uh you know you constantly it's a try and test where you try something out and then learn from that, you know, what mistakes you made, and next time you, you know, do not make the same mistakes. So those are the very important things.
SPEAKER_03W when your team makes mistakes, it costs you money as a business owner, right? You you watch your team make a mistake, you see that they're gonna make a mistake before it even happens sometimes, and you know that the train is gonna completely derail and it's gonna cost you money to fix this, but you also know that the c this is gonna cost money to fix this because I might have to refund a client or work for free to fix it or put other team members on the problem or whatever. Um, but that's an investment, that cost is an investment in the team, right? Because the team have to learn how to get the train back on the tracks and how to fix it. How do how do you and I know this is a huge fear for a lot of agency owners that they're just like, you know, that that it's how do you manage your own anxiety around, well, this is gonna be a train wreck and I have to let it happen and I have to let the team learn, even though it's gonna cost us money. That's just the way it is. How do you how do you manage your your mindset through that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I said, you know, the mistakes are inevitable. The most important thing is that you are not repeating the same mistakes.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Uh that is the super important thing. At least you are learning from the you know past mistakes and not repeating the the same one, right? I think, yeah, that's definitely a fear. One thing, you know, I always did it, I made sure to communicate. I think you know, when I'm having a conversation with team, most of the time I I just tell them that, hey, you know, if I would be doing like this, I'll do it like this, and I'll make sure not to do this because that's what you know, one of the mistakes. So I often talk about my mistakes. That okay, one of the most common mistakes, uh, you know, I always did. So I wanted to make sure that you learn from that. You do not repeat the kind of same mistake. Just to uh just to give you an idea. Like, you know, I was having a conversation actually uh yesterday with our HR, and uh there were some disciplinary issues with one of our one of our employees, right? And uh and I always told her that you know in the past I always made a mistake where there are few disciplinary issues, and then you make a strict policies and implement across the organization, which is not the right thing, right? You really want to go after the particular person, not to punish everyone, right, with making a very strict policies and everything. That's not the good for the culture. So I think that way, you know, they learn and do not repeat. So we don't want to be uh a typical conventional uh corporate governance, yeah. Where uh in in a like you know, where the one person uh goes does something wrong, and then you know the other people have to uh go through something which they do not deserve. And then there are so many different uh great people who are working so hard, working and then they definitely uh deserve a great culture, great policies, right? So I think uh coming back to our discussion, yeah, super super important that uh mistakes are inevitable, right? You communicate, you just uh and and all you can do is like you know, like having the process and updating those processes over the time. And all you can do is like what's in your uh control, like as long as whatever you can envision, okay, what are the possible mistakes this person could make, and you just you know make them aware that hey, these are the things we really need to avoid. That's all we can do in order to minimize the mistakes. And obviously, if you are choosing the right person who understands the importance of not making the same mistake again, yeah, you will get that at a point where you will be making the minimum um mistakes, and that will cost you at minimum.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But I think but you have to let your team make mistakes, right? It's important that they make mistakes because that's how they learn. So so you put you put guardrails around them, but uh the the mistake I made in the early days was I would see a train about to crash and I would come in at the last minute and save it and get it back on track. And what happened is I had a team member once say, uh I had a team member resign once and on the way out uh during that kind of exit interview, he said, I can't do my job, you won't let me do my job because you keep coming in at the last minute and kind of trying to rescue things. And so I there's no point in me being here, you may as well just do it yourself. And that was a big lesson for me. Um and the other the other lesson I the other lesson I learned was that um you need to, I think you need to give your team permission to make mistakes. You need to let them know it's okay to make mistakes, right? I I say to my team these days, you won't get in trouble for making the wrong decision, but you will get into trouble if you don't make a bloody decision and you make me make all the decisions, right? Because or Emily, our CEO, because then we become the bottleneck. So make a decision, right? You know what we're trying to do here, you know the values, you you know the company culture and our organization and our clients and what we do. Make a decision. If you made the wrong decision, just come talk to us about it. We'll back you 100% of the way and we'll we'll fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again. Because chances are when people make a mistake, I also like to take a bit of responsibility and say, you know, it's our fault that we haven't communicated this clearly enough, and that that's why you you did this because you weren't sure what the boundaries were. So we take a bit of responsibility, but you do have to let them make mistakes, otherwise, otherwise they don't learn and they don't evolve and and they don't grow. And I think that's what people want more than anything at work is they want to know that they're growing, and they want to know that they're contributing and that they're getting better and that they're developing as people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh no, that's a great point. I think that's what uh I have done it, and I'm still doing it, like making people realize they have the real skin in the game, right? I when I when I tell them that, hey, you know, you've got to make a decision, I just tell them that think like that, you know. When uh as a leader, there are two personalities you have. One is individual you, and then there is an organization, right? So there is a one framework which I always uh follow and tell people that you know choose the non-emotional response to any given situation and see how much easier your life becomes, right? So uh that's the that's the most important thing. Often, you know, as a because we work with people, yeah, uh it happens where it's very hard to make sometimes decisions just because of the the emotional reason, right? Yeah, certainly think like that when you are making a decision, you are not an actual person. Obviously, if you are the the business are related to people, you need to be more empathetic. But as a from you have to think from a business. Business does not have emotions, period, right? So think like that. You you are a business and you are making how to make decisions. So I always tell them that you know, uh think like that. Uh the second important thing uh is that uh you know when you are making any any sort of uh the decisions, like envision, foresee the possible outcomes, right? So you be ready for that. So it is alright, uh it it happens, you know, like like you said, you know, I used to come at the last moment uh and and and save everything, and they they felt like okay, you know, and it's a psychological thing, they then they will always bring you in the last moment to save the bot, right? So one of the things we started doing is right now this is something interesting exercise. Uh I think you know, I had a meeting with our leadership team like few last quarter. Whenever we get an you know, whenever we lose any client or whenever we get any escalation, I tell team, okay, come up with at least three reasons. What could have gone wrong from our end? We don't want to play a blame game. Hey, this wasn't provided by client, client wasn't okay, this wasn't the right client. That's fine, we'll figure that out later, right? If the client is not right for us, we'll let them go. But at least think like that, you know, do that kind of like brainstorming exercise, uh, which we call like you know, post-bottom exercise, where there is a like the entire team, account manager, customer service, salespeople, project manager, the actual team, they just get together and just brainstorm that okay, rather than blaming internally or to client, or what could have we could have done it appropriate where we could have avoided this escalation. So these kind of exercises, which is like you know, uh more of a realization exercises, uh, which help them to realize that okay, which we could have the steps which could we could have taken from our end. So at least they know okay the next time we could avoid this kind of uh you know mistakes.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's we it's um oh man, I I it's just it just vindicates our alignment. And I don't want this to turn into the mutual admiration podcast, but uh you know, when when you reached out, when you first emailed me uh to introduce yourself, your first email was actually you expressed interest in sponsoring the podcast. And initially we said no because we didn't have any sponsors on the podcast, and also because we didn't know you. We'd heard I'd heard about E2M and I'd only heard good things. But every time you and I talk, I'm I'm I'm vindicated about my decision to partner with you guys because I feel like everything you say I'm about to say or have said or I'm learning, like there's such a there's such an alignment. And I obviously you were out at MavCon on the Gold Coast uh recently at our event, and I know that uh you've picked up a bunch of agency clients from that event, which is fantastic, and we've heard amazing feedback from the clients that you've been working with. So thank you for continuing to do great work for our our clients. But one of the things I I want to unpack is, you know, we were talking about this before we hit record, is we're we're in the services game, right? So we we sell and we deliver largely intangible things, right? We're not making, you know, my parents have a trophy business and uh and uh they, you know, they work with physical products. So they buy all the components of these trophies, they put them together, they send them out to customers. Now, if I sent this to Alibaba and said, Hey, can you make me a thousand of these? They would make them pretty much identical because they know exactly what the finished product looks like, right? Because they can see it, they can touch it, they can feel it, they can feel how heavy it is, they see what materials it's made of. With a website and SEO and digital marketing, it's so subjective, right? I explain something to you, the client explains it to me, I explain it to you, things get lost in translation. How what what have you done? And I think this is the thing that holds most freelancers back from becoming agencies and holds most agencies back from putting their foot on the pedal from a sales and marketing point of view, right? Because I firmly believe that if you're in the web design SEO digital marketing space in 2023, post-COVID, with everything that's happening with AI, if you're not on your way to making seven figures a year in revenue, then you're doing something wrong, right? It is such a golden time right now. It is such an incredible opportunity to be absolutely killing it. And I think the thing that holds most people back is either imposter syndrome, because they don't have the confidence or the um the they don't have confidence in their own abilities, or lack of team, which is the same thing. They don't have capacity or confidence in the team's ability to deliver what it is they're promising. So, and I think what it comes down to is people are afraid of or they don't understand how to communicate. You you touched on it before. People think that they're the only ones that can do the job, right? I'm the only ones that can build these websites and do local SEO for clients. No one else can do it the way I do it, which is complete rubbish, right? We're not unicorns. In fact, I would argue that most people listening to this podcast are not the best at what they do. In fact, they're probably a six out of ten at what they do, and they should be surrounding themselves with smarter people. And that's not to offend anyone that's listening to this, it's just the reality. But I think the thing that holds people back is they're afraid on some level that they're not gonna know how to communicate the expectations and the brief to their team, whether it's a white label partner like E2M or whether it's their their own team that they're hiring or someone they found on Fiverr or whatever, that they're not gonna be able to communicate it in a way and that they're not gonna get back what they expected. They've maybe done it before in the past and they've been burnt, and so now they're choosing to stay small because they don't know how to communicate a brief and get something back that is what they're expecting or even better than what they're expecting. So what I'm curious about is we've heard amazing things from our clients about what you guys are doing. How do you how have you managed to get your team to to communicate with the client, but also communicate internally to make sure that you're delivering what's expected?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's uh it's a big question, I know. It's a big question, yeah. And it it actually is absolutely great question. It evolved over the period of time, right? Uh there is no uh perfect answer to this question, but I think this is a continuously evolution process since we have over a decade of experience, we worked with so many different clients. So I think you know what uh as an agency uh owner, you really need to make sure that okay, what are the pieces you have to put together in order to be successful, right? You needed to communicate. So, what usually we do is like you know, uh we have a process. So you have an onboarding, we have an onboarding process where we make sure that we have every single information needed from client in order to be successful, right? There is no vague information. So for that, we always ask agencies that hey, do you have a particular way of format you really want to pass information to us, or you can fill out our uh you know, format. So we over the period of time we have developed uh you know kind of a questionnaire that kind of like uh you know intake forms uh which gets us all the information. So ultimately it comes down to the processes that yeah, you have to have some sort of way of like you know uh transforming that information, transferring that information, right? So you always have that uh question that how should I be able to communicate? Yeah, uh there are a couple of ways, you know, you make sure you have the calls recorded, sales calls, initial sales calls recorded with your clients. So you could pass from their source sales calls recordings uh you know to your team. So exactly your team uh understands, you know, what the kind of conversations you had with your uh clients, right? Um make sure the scope is very much clear, right? So there's a scope grip and everything, right? Uh these are the very much important things as well. So I think you have to be clear at your end that okay, at least you understand everything, right? And it is super then, it's just a matter of putting together everything in the right format and then pass that information to the team, right? And that the same uh information goes, uh, you know, passes down to the team as well. So one rule we follow is that never start anything un unless you are 100% clear what you need to do, right? So uh that is super super important to avoid any kind of uh back and forth. Get on the client call uh you know often, right? Uh in terms of like whenever there are doubts and whenever there is a huge when you feel like okay, there is a huge clarification needed, do not stretch that thing, right? Be realistic uh in terms of commitment and deliveries, you know. Uh although sometimes clients don't like it, but you know, it is what it is, right? Be be absolutely, absolutely realistic. So I think it comes down to being self-organized, right? You know, having the right formats and processes in the place. Uh, because and obviously, you know, finding the person. So we always uh we we talked about this earlier as well, right? That you really want to have the person uh you know who actually is doing the job without title, right? You have to identify the person who loves to do what you kind of like, you know, start hating to do not literally hate, but obviously you are no more interested to doing that stuff. So you might want to uh put someone uh as a as a as a license to do all that stuff which you are doing and which you are kind of afraid of, right? So now there are kind of like AI note takers, there are tools out there, you know, which can take the tools from your meeting and put those notes and just pass this those notes as well, right? So I think this is a very subjective thing, like how you really want to do it. But yeah, uh it's like making sure you have the right processes and people uh and formats in the place.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I want to come back and unpack a little bit more of that in a second, but I just do want to give people a resource. airgram.io, a-i-r-g-r-am.io, airgram.io. I don't have an affiliate link for that. I should have, but I don't. Uh it is the tool that we're using at the moment that records what I love about it is that it automatically records all of our Zoom calls. It uh automatically transcribes them. You can then generate a chat GPT style summary of it. You can then highlight parts of the transcript and create a to-do item and pipe that into a sauna. You can highlight parts of a transcript and pipe that straight into a Slack channel. You can also highlight parts of the transcript and create a clip, a video clip of that call just of that part of the transcript. So what we're doing is we're using that to extract gold out of, you imagine you're on a call with a client and you they ask you some questions and you give them some strategic advice, which is really helpful. Well, as long as you're not using the client's details and you're not exposing their privacy, you can clip that bit out of the call in a couple of seconds and then share that on LinkedIn or Facebook as a marketing video to let people know the kind of way the way that you think and the way that you approach problem solving. So airgram.io, definitely worth checking out. Um you talk about formats a lot. Um, you talk about the intake form. Um I I used to cringe when we'd on board with a new agency doing whatever they were doing for us, and they'd send us this big long intake form. Um and it and the reason I used to cringe is because some of the ans some of the questions I couldn't answer back in early in our business, right? I didn't know who our perfect client avatar was, I didn't know our reason, our vision, all that kind of stuff. Now I've I use dictation software on the Mac, so I talk to my computer rather than type. And I can answer those intake forms in about two minutes because I know it. So and I, you know what, I actually love a good intake form now because it forces me, I it it helps me sharpen my saw. Every time I describe who our perfect client is, they get a little bit clearer to me. Yes, they get a little bit more, they get a little bit more three-dimensional, right? Yeah. Um, and so um I I'm I'm also you also mentioned that you you ask an agency, and this is one thing I think that's worth exploring, is you say to them, what format would you like to give it to us in? Or if you don't have a preferred format, you can use our intake form. Right. So, and I know that uh one of our clients mentioned that you guys um built a website for them recently. You you project managed it all uh in in their project management tool, you communicated in their Slack. So it sounds to me like you're very flexible in working with the agency's chosen tech stack or their chosen process. If the agency's already got a process dialed in that you'll work within their existing process, but if they don't have one, then you've got your own processes that they can follow.
SPEAKER_00That's correct. I think uh one of the uh you know most important things for agencies is like when they really want to uh you know onboard a white-level partner team to free up their time and scale. Their biggest concern is like we don't want to get introduced to new processes and tools because we don't have a time to learn new processes and tools. And that's the reason, you know, uh we make it very flexible for them that hey, you know, you can set up an email address, white-level email address for us will be part of your project collaboration tool. So it's literally plug and play, will be a part of your Slack channel. So you feel like you are uh onboarding a team, uh, but now you don't have to train them. It's wetted, it's highly experienced and ready to hit the ground from day one, right? So uh that's the biggest uh thing uh you know agencies uh should take uh into consideration that uh yeah, you really don't know what uh you really want to have a partner or team who are ready to hit the ground from day one, specifically when you do not have a time to train them and do not want to get into a training process or introducing learning about new tools and processes and like that, right? So that helps a lot agencies. Uh so I think, yeah, uh the biggest fear, you know, coming back to our thing that okay, how to have your team communicate the same thing, and the biggest fear you always have as like having someone else to do what you are doing is again uh that the the first thing, yeah, how many new things you have to do it, right? So you really want to find someone who is who knows your style, right? Uh I I'll give you an example. So we onboard a lot of agencies who are actually developers, they are doing everything by themselves. And the biggest concern they have that hey, you know, I have a particular way of building the websites. I use this particular page builder, I follow certain sites, types of plugins and everything. So, what we started doing is during the onboarding call, we ask them to provide three letters to websites they have built and provide them the provide us the back end access. So, what we just do is we just go through the three letters sites they have built, we exactly know now exactly how he has been the client has been building the site, and then we follow the same thing, right? So these are the few things uh which help uh you know us to be uh understand you know how they want certain things to be done, and then we ask them, like you know, there is a particular if you have a specific uh list of plugins you want us to, you know, use, yeah, we'll make sure to use that thing as well. And if you don't have so we have our own standards and checklists, which we follow uh for building websites, few Q and everything, which agencies love either way, because we have you know those are more proprietary information. If they don't have it, then we just follow ours. So it's like giving them an option that okay, hey, uh if you don't have it, that's fine, we have it, right? So they know uh that okay, uh this is something gonna uh work out for sure because now at least either of us have uh processes, checklists, standards, and everything uh which is needed to make the project successful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And there's a cost involved in that for you, right, as a business owner, because your staff are then having to learn different processes. Like it's yes, it's um it would be easier and more efficient and cheaper for you, and and frankly, you would have more margin if your whole team did everything the same way every time, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I know because you and I have met and we've hung out and we've spoken and we had dinner, even though I was as sick as a dog when we had dinner that night. But your your uh vision is to make it as easy as possible for the agency to grow by leveraging your team. And so there is a cost involved in your team. I'm just letting everyone know here that like this is uh you've invested and given your team the time to learn those processes for all the different agencies. And if you've got 150 different agency clients, then you've got you know dozens of different ways of doing things, and there is an admin overhead and a cost involved in that. Um, how do you manage, and this is not a trick question, I'm generally curious, how do you manage your internal knowledge base within the company? Like if someone says, Oh, I don't know how to do this with ACF and someone else has already done it with ACF, how do you guys communicate or manage that internal knowledge base?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's a great question. And uh that brings the most important thing is like uh last week itself, like DV launched uh AI builder. Uh so it is coming, right? And uh there is definitely the moment something comes like that, we literally have to put few people to learn that as quickly as possible because uh we are like you know, we do a lot of work on WordPress, which that's our core forte. So we just have to be ahead of the call and make sure that you know we are uh we are early adopters, right? So a couple of things like we have a hierarchy, we have a delivery manager, then we have like 15 project managers, then we have a tech lead, and then then we have a team, right? So we have an appropriate hierarchy for that. Um we have a few technical people who are responsible for certain type of technical research and making sure uh staying ahead of the code. Uh that is the one thing. Second thing, we maintain a common repository of the things people are working on, and then uh there is a delivery manager, you know, ways like having a monthly meeting with all the project managers, and that's where Jesus discussed what are the most common challenges they have had last month, and what are the you know most uh uh common solutions, like some something which is like useful to others, right? So we have some common repositories where we maintain that data, and then we discuss that out uh you know in like monthly meeting, and then there is a like Slack channel. We have a Skype group of a project managers where the one person will quickly ask because the entire team is working with either like all these 10 to 15 project managers that hey, anyone worked on that? And people keep posting that. So I think one rule we have is like uh okay, before you you don't need to reinvent the wheel in order to quickly check with someone else that hey, have anyone done something like this? I am doing uh these kind of thing, right? Yeah, so yes, it takes a lot of resources, uh, you know, and that's what the agencies benefit uh while working with us. That's you know, they don't have to because it's constantly evolving, right? Like I said, you know, DV launched an AI builder. So obviously they want to leverage that. They don't have a time to learn, which is something we'll do it. Uh that's right.
SPEAKER_03So this is one of the things that I've I've we've we've onboarded, uh we onboarded seven new Mavericks in July. I think we've onboarded four or five in August so far. So we're growing, we're 100% focused now on onboarding 100 new Mavericks Club members in this financial year, which is July to June, and we're on track. Um and I've been having a lot of part of when people join Mavericks Club is the first thing they we do is a one-on-one call with myself and Emily and their client success uh navigator who's Anna or Jane, and we go through their financials and we go through their spreadsheet, right? We go through their PL and their margins. And always, always, always, always, there are problems with the team. That's the bottleneck. There's always there's always someone on the team who, you know, is in the wrong role or shouldn't be there at all or is, you know, is not performing, and there's always a capacity issue. And one of the things I say to new Mavericks is at least in the short term, the way to increase capacity in your team so that you can serve more clients and grow your revenue, because revenue isn't everything, but it sure as hell fixes a lot of problems, right? If you've got more revenue and more profit. The way to do that, at least in the short term, and maybe in the long term, is to tap into a another agency partner like E2M Solutions, for example, or you know, if it's uh if it's a different type of um, like for example, an accounting firm who already has bookkeepers and already has a back office team built out in the Philippines, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um tap into those companies who already have that infrastructure built.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Now you will pay more than if you than if you went and built your own team, like if you built your own team uh of of a bookkeeper and admin support in the Philippines and manage them yourselves, it would be cheaper than using a local accounting firm who's already got that infrastructure. So you will pay more by using someone who's already built that infrastructure, but it will just allow you to move way faster. Yes. Right? That's total. Like full transparency. I know that uh if I went to uh India and sourced my own developers, it would probably be cheaper than if I went to E2N, but it's gonna take me way longer. I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna make a lot of mistakes along the way. I'm gonna get my my fingers burnt. I may it may even damage my confidence to the point where I don't want to build a team and I just want to stay small. So the fact that you've got that infrastructure built out is what agencies are tapping into is not just your team of talent, but it's that infrastructure and those processes that you've spent the last 11 years building, right? And that's what allows them to move faster. Now, the other thing I think that is uh uh the the a big benefit of what you guys do is am I right in saying that 180 staff all work out of the same building?
SPEAKER_00That's correct. So we have a 20,000 square foot office, so everyone working from the same office. So it's a very collaborative uh approach. So that makes things much, much easier as well, uh, for clients to work with us because it's not something that uh that's where we I have a very different perspective. So I know we are in a remote economy, right? But uh still I feel like uh having uh you know everyone at the same uh place makes a huge difference. Absolutely building a culture, right? And that's what makes things easy, like you say, like you know, how do you uh keep track of all this knowledge and everything, right? So we do schedule these kind of monthly, there are always knowledge setting sessions going on. So at least these kind of sessions happen, like a couple of sessions happen every month where we have an open invite to everyone. And since everyone is on the same floor, people can just join. So even like uh you know, someone is having uh uh taking a session on like G A GTM, uh, and then you know developer can even join and learn that thing. So there is always a cross thing, a cross uh knowledge sharing happens as well. So yeah, that uh I I agree with you, you know. I wanted to just share one small thing uh about this thing where you really do not want to reinvent the wheel. If someone has already done that, why don't you leverage that thing, right? We often forget the biggest uh example, you know, product we always use is Apple, right? I mean you say it's clearly says designed in California and you know manufactured in China because that's right, they know that if they would be manufacturing iPhones in the states, they would be selling at like 3x, 4x cost.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_00And and even if they try to do it in the states, they might not be able to match the pace, quality, and quantity because the the level of infrastructure processes and everything China has, they figured it out, right? That's right.
SPEAKER_01So I figured it out.
SPEAKER_00If you think like you know, the trillion dollar company uh is doing that thing, yeah, then you really we talked about that earlier, if you remember, like you know, you really want to have your strong position in the ecosystem, yeah. Understand your position in the ecosystem, yeah, and then just the leverage uh you know partnerships around and just grow together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. The Japanese invented just in time inventory, right? So in the old days when you made cars, you would have a warehouse, completely massive warehouse full of car parts, and then as the car came around, you'd have a forklift, go get the part off the shelf, come and put it on the car. The Japanese at one point went, hang on a second, there's a lot of real estate here full of car parts that sit here for three months before they go on the cars. Why don't we just have the truck pull up, open the roller door, take the parts off the back of the truck and put them straight on the car and we don't have to warehouse them? They invented just in time inventory, right? And they completely disrupted the automobile manufacturing industry. Now in Australia, we don't manufacture cars here anymore. Guess why? Because we're really bad at it. We're really inefficient, right? Really inefficient. And everyone was screaming, crying poor that the manufacturing, the car industry in Australia has gone under and that the government should support it. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We should not be injecting money into an industry that is so bad we can't compete on the global stage. We should let the Japanese and the Koreans make cars because they're really good at it. Let them do it. We can do other things. We are the country best positioned on the planet to produce solar energy because we're basically a desert, right? Our whole country should be filled with solar farms and we should be exporting solar energy to the rest of the world. But instead, it's easier to dig up the planet and sell coal and uranium and iron ore than it is to think about innovating renewables. Don't get me started on that. So uh so what we do is we just have a whinge when our car industry goes bust because we couldn't figure out how to do it as well as the Japanese, right? So let's do an example.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The people who do it best let them do it. And one thing, the other thing about it's not just economics, right? Like partnering with someone in uh India or the Philippines or Vietnam or Thailand for doing development SOA, it's not just about economics, it's about the talent pool. One thing I've learned over the years is a big part of um, and I use the Philippines as an example because I've been there and we had a team, we had a team there and we still have some of a team there, is that a big part of their economy is tourism and then uh admin support for Australian, US, Canadian, New Zealand, UK uh uh companies based companies, right? So they have not only built infrastructure specifically to support uh companies in in our countries, but they've also trained their population to do the job. We we don't have the same talent pool in Australia, and I'm sorry if people listening to this are gonna be offended by this, but I'm telling you now, per head of population, there are more talented people in the digital marketing space in countries that are not Australia and the US and Canada because we haven't invested in training our population to do those jobs, right? Uh whereas India, um uh Philippines, Thailand, I mean the the SEO capital of the world is Chiang Mai in Thailand, right? It's where all the all the big SEO guys hang out and they train the SEO teams over there to do it, partially for a lifestyle uh choice, but that's just where they've landed. We just haven't made the investment for whatever reason. So I think it's it's it's not only um not only economically does it make sense, but also just opening yourself to a much wider talent pool and giving yourself the option to tap into that larger talent pool makes perfect sense. And in fact, I think if you are, you know, we've had people come into Mavericks who were absolutely hellbent on only having local staff in their office, and they now have a team in India and the Philippines. And yeah, uh, so they've they've expanded their mind and they've expanded their talent pool, and they've they've as a result, they've been able to grow faster because they have greater capacity on their team, because they haven't restricted their thinking to just thinking in their local kind of you know five kilometer radius.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we are a pro part of global economy and we cannot avoid the facts. Certain facts we cannot avoid, although we don't like it or not. I mean, it's not something I'm like, you know, uh speaking highly about India, but I mean, one thing like we have become the number one country in the world in terms of population, that's something we are not proud of, by the way. Uh that's not great. Uh, but yeah, that puts us in a very good and unique situation where we have the highest youth population in the world. Like, you know, 35% of our population is youth population. And uh we are the you know, highest uh we have the highest uh people who are like English speaking people in the world, right? So because of the excess of internet, internet is so much inexpensive over here that everyone has excess of internet, and that makes them exposed to the all the you know Western culture, Western content, and everything. Uh so people are people have become more adaptive. So I think you know uh that's and then and s so many great universities we have, so many great programs we have. So I think the you are right, you know the I mean the the privilege we have is like tomorrow if I were to hire like a hundred people more, I can do it very easily because we have that kind of people available. You know, we are very dynamic, who are like you know, hungry for growth, they are very well they have a kind of right kind of willingness to learn and adopt the new things, like they are very much curious about uh uh the opportunities as well. So I think we are like we are we are like you know, we are still developing countries, right? Uh so everyone is very much opportunist, where people are very much opportunists, not something that okay, we are already developed and we don't want to look for new opportunities. So that kind of like makes countries like us to be in a great uh position. So yeah, uh I think you know these are the facts which are like like it or hate it, hate it, but it's the fact, you know, you cannot avoid it.
SPEAKER_03That's right. That's right. And and also also And how you how you leverage that?
SPEAKER_00That's the that's right, exactly. For your own benefit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's right. And and also, you know, uh so you know, uh countries like Australia and the United States have not invested in high-speed broadband the way that some other countries have, right? New Zealand outranks Australia and and the US. The Philippines has way faster internet than Australia. I don't care what the website's rankings tell you. I know because I have a team over there and we do speed checks, and I've got like the fastest broadband you can get in Australia, and my team in the Philippines still have faster broadband. So, you know, it it's it's if if you look at the countries that have invested in this infrastructure, they've invested in the talent, they've invested in building those processes and building those. I mean, in the Philippines, there's a place called Fort Bonifacio, which is basically the uh Beverly Hills of Manila, right? And it's where all the big telcos and all the banks had their call centers pre-COVID. A lot of them are pulled out of there now, but um it's it's they've invested in this entire city that is basically built for BPOs to support companies based in Australia, the US, Canada, New Zealand, the UK, Europe. Um and so, you know, that that that that there's an entire economy that's been built up around that. So anyway, I I think um uh and and I know when we first started out, when I first started out building websites back in 2007, I I was resistant to delegate or to outsource, as it was called back then. And the reason was is because I didn't know how to do it, and I was absolutely terrified that I was gonna get ripped off. I was terrified I was gonna get taken for a ride. I was also terrified that I was gonna promise something to a client and then not be able to deliver it because I wasn't able to communicate with the people in and we had a team in India at that point, and I learned so much in that first 12 months. Luckily, we found uh a small team in India who were amazing and actually taught us. I I had a team in India doing SEO for me back in the day. They taught me more about SEO than I could ever have taught them because that's what they did day in, day out. Like I tapped into their knowledge base, which actually helped me sell more SEO to my clients. So I think um, yeah, I think uh we've made the case. People should definitely be reaching out to E2M to Punt. If you have capacity or bandwidth issues on your team and or or it's just you and you want to put your foot on the rev on the revenue pedal and grow your agency, reach out to Manish and have a conversation with E2M Solutions. In fact, I think there's a special page that you guys have set up, uh e2m solutions.com slash agency dash mavericks. We'll put a link underneath this episode so people can reach out and connect. Um and I also believe you're sponsoring Mavcon again in uh Fairfax, Virginia, which is coming up in a couple of months. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00That's correct. Yeah, we'll be there uh in October in Virginia at Mavcon again.
SPEAKER_03So get uh so you're coming out. Yes, all right. I'll do that.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep, fantastic.
SPEAKER_03I'm looking forward to that. I won't be sick this time. I promise I'm gonna dose up on my vitamins and and not get sick. Uh I'm so looking forward to coming out of the States, man. It's gonna be awesome. Mavcon October 16 and 17 in Fairfax, Virginia, and then we've got a few days off where I'm gonna go to Manhattan and get my fix of New York and then uh down to Dallas, Texas for the high-level summer. So that's gonna be super, super fun. Hey Manish, thank you so much for joining us on the Agency Our Podcast, and thank you for being our exclusive sponsor here. We really appreciate everything you're doing for our community.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, Troy. Thank you for having me on the show, and uh yeah, I look forward to you know hanging out with you in Virginia in October then.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Take care, my friend.
SPEAKER_00Likewise, thank you. Have a good one.
SPEAKER_03Woohoo! Perfect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this was great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, awesome. We uh we didn't even touch on AI, but we can do that next time, you know. We can Yeah, next time.
SPEAKER_00So this is great.
SPEAKER_03I think uh it it should be more conversational and oh absolutely uh you know high-level ideas, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I love it. It's um and I do want to get into I'm deep in the AI rabbit hole at the moment. I'm kind of working out how AI can improve every part of our business. So we'll definitely talk about that uh more next time. In fact, I'm gonna do some AI presentations out in uh in Fairfax as well.
SPEAKER_00And uh I'll I'll share one uh so you'll uh yesterday last night uh I came across a good report. Uh let me email that to you.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_00Uh email to you, Anilly. So Mackenzie published a really good uh you know uh done. I just uh sent you an email.
SPEAKER_01Cool.
SPEAKER_00So they published a really good uh report which uh speaks about like AI revolution on economy. So what kind of industry? It's a 68 pages, huge report, but if you go to page number 16, page number 25, they have a chart like which industry they are gonna impact, disrupt, and uh like the it has really good facts and figures.
SPEAKER_03Great. Okay, so you've emailed that to me, have you?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I did.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. I'll look forward to I'll uh stick it on the iPad and have some bedtime reading.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a long one, but it's like economic uh the economic potential of generative AI. So next time I look forward to it.
SPEAKER_03It's an exciting time to be alive, man. It's like I feel like I know a lot of people are scared of AI, but I actually feel like AI is gonna push us into being more human. Exactly. 100%. It's gonna push us to embrace the fact that we're human beings and that we're not pedal, we're not keyboard pushers and we're not pushing pixels around the screen. All that shit should be done by robots because they're better at it than us. And we should be more human, right? And what we do is we have empathy and we have conversations and we understand each other and we solve problems, and then we use robots to actually do the work. That's the way it should be done, you know. We think, yeah, it's what human beings do.
SPEAKER_00I think it's uh it's something, you know, a little bit going on a more on a spiritual side, but I think it's gonna raise the human consciousness to another level. Yes. Uh, because I think we human beings doing so many compulsive things uh just because we did not have this kind of technologies exist so far to do those kind of stuff, right?
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I feel uh I I totally agree with you that uh uh the AI, you know, it's gonna make our lives much, much easier. Yeah, it's it's it's scary because people you know uh who are like who are too much compulsive and they are not willing to get out of their comfort zone, yeah, they will they will get replaced. But yeah, people who are conscious in mind, I mean whether you like it or hate it, you have to upgrade. You just have to keep pushing yourself, yeah. Otherwise you will become completely irrelevant. So I I totally agree with you, you know, that we just should leave things uh to robots and AI, what they are really good at. I mean, we should really focus on improving the you know, improving the health, improving the like lifestyle, you know, and consciousness, helping others and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_03Totally. You know, one thing I've been reflecting on a lot lately is the first half of this year, I didn't do a lot of work. We moved house, Emily was running the business, um, we our little boy started school. Um, we were renovating the the new house that we moved just to outside the front and backyard. Then we had a holiday, and then we had a couple of health scares with our kids. And so I really did I did hardly any work the first six months of this year. And it was strange because I had I had time to reflect on the fact that human beings, we're called human beings, not human doings, right? Yes. And human beings don't know what to do with themselves if they're not solving a problem and they're not down some rabbit hole and they're not actually doing stuff. And I spent a little bit of time in the hot tub the first six months of this year, just sitting out in the backyard when we got our new hot tub installed. I spent a bit of time just sitting in the spa reading books and just reflecting on a Tuesday afternoon and going, I kind of feel guilty like I should be at work. But I I managed that. I was like, well, what why? Why, why have a team? I have a team doing everything. Why should I be at work? Now I'm back at work now because I'm having fun and I'm enjoying it. But I wonder what would happen if we figured out a way to use the robots to do all of the work and make all of the money and we didn't have to do much. How would that change humanity? How would that change the conversations that we if if you and I got on a call, not because we needed to or because we were trying to grow our business, but just to explore philosophies and ideas and concepts, and there was no commercial model behind it because the AI bots were doing everything anyway, right? How would that change our interactions and and globally, geopolitically, how would that change things? It's a huge shift.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I wouldn't be surprised. Uh this is gonna happen for sure. In a in a one line, we are not designed to just make money, pay the bills, and die.
SPEAKER_03That's it, right? That's right.
SPEAKER_00I think you know majority of people are doing the same thing, you know. Yeah, everyone is after like making money, pay the bills. That's a circle. So it's a vicious circle we are trapped into. And like you said, you know, the moment you take the time off from that vicious circle, you start feeling guilty. Just imagine how much you know, we are so much trapped into that that the moment we take time off, we start feeling guilty. Hey, you know, I should be taking uh it shouldn't be taking time off, I should be working instead because I have to make more money, I have to so I I I absolutely agree, you know, it is and you can only discuss these ideas, philosophies when you get free, right? I think doing nothing, getting a f having a free time is so much underrated. Where if you just if you just take some time off, and it's it's it's like you know, human psychology. The moment you say, Hey, I'm gonna take some time off. The second question, what are you gonna do? Right? And you say nothing, and then are you serious? Nothing. I mean, wouldn't you get bored and you say, I know I'll figure it out, but I at least I don't have an even anything on your mind, right? Yes, it happens with entrepreneurs as well. The moment you sell your business, someone is gonna ask you that, okay, what are you gonna do? Right? So it's like that sleeping that yeah, imposter syndrome, right? Um so I this question comes to my mind, you know, and I'm actually training my mind where okay, that if I sell my business one day, then the second question comes to my mind, yeah, what am I gonna do then? Right? And then that stops me from thinking more in that direction because it creates a fear in my mind that okay, what am I gonna do if I get free? No, and then that's I you know I was listening to one podcast, they call it like astronaut syndrome. So astronaut syndrome is kind of like when astronauts come from back from the space, they keep them isolated for some period of time. They call it like astronaut syndrome because it's very difficult for them to adjust in the atmosphere of our and this kind of lifestyle, right? So I read these kind of things like and it's it's surprised me, right? You know, it's so much underrated. The moment you say I'm gonna do nothing, people are surprised. So you have to say the what are the ans acceptable answers? Vacation, time off, right? I'm gonna do something new research, but nothing is not acceptable answer. It's kind of like it's very hard for a society to digest, right? Obviously, you don't need to explain anyone, right? But it's it's more about you see how we are wired, how we have been wired, which is wrong. So I don't totally agree that you know uh AI is a blessing where you can have the low. I mean, I was reading this thing. The future of business is a lot they are saying is a solo preneur as well, where you have the tools and AIs who are working for you, and you are not managing people, and they are you're constantly you know having this kind of tools who are doing stuff for you, and then you are spending more time on you know developing and evolving yourself, or you know, playing guitar, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Or or you know, volunteering at your kids' school, or you know, doing like doing you know, what one of the things it's interesting, like our whole sense of self-worth is tied up in in what we do, right? So you go to a barbecue and you meet someone, one of the first questions you ask is, What do you do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_03That's gotta not I don't do anything. Right. You don't ask, who are you?
SPEAKER_00Who are you?
SPEAKER_03How are you doing? How are you how are you feeling? How is your heart? Yeah, how is your family? How is your health? You ask, what do you do? Yeah, and they say, Oh, you know, I I'm I'm an electrician, and all of a sudden you put them in a box straight away so that you can understand them, right? So and and yeah, that's right. Who do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah, what do you want to be when you grow up?
SPEAKER_00So we we kind of like level people, you know, we just like judge so quickly and put them in a category, right? Yeah, instead of just having an open conversation, open yeah uh communication.
SPEAKER_03And have have you read um have you read the um the Amanak of Naval Ravaskan? Yes, I did.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you know, uh one thing that brings me to because I have been reading him since last five years. And these his uh ideologies, philosophies, and frameworks helped me a lot to change my thinking. It helped me a lot to be successful personally and professionally. I think you know, one thing he said that if he would have an option to live the life again, he would be living life where he will not be doing anything for the sake of obligation, right? So, like you said, playing a guitar or volunteering in a kid's school, you do not have an obligation to do something. So, right now, what we are doing is like, okay, I want to do this thing because I have an obligation to pay my bills, take care of my family, or buy a house, or some sort of like that, right? So that's what they are talking about, universal basic income as well. That okay, what if we have a like you know, uh I know, you know, then there will be no incentive and there will be no innovation and everything. So that is a it's a debatable question, but they are saying that I don't know if you read about universal basic income. If you read that thing, it's like they are talking about having the same income for everyone, and then people just do naturally what they like, and the world will be an absolutely different place. It's uh yeah, but then then there are a lot of debate.
SPEAKER_03And I I actually think you know there there there is, it's funny uh because I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I do have to get into another call, but um but um um uh f commercial incentive does drive innovation, right? So companies will invest in innovation and technology for commercial gain. But if you didn't need to, if there was no commercial gain, human beings would still innovate to solve problems. In fact, I think that the climate problems would be solved faster if there was no financial commercial gain, if it was just human beings with all the resources we needed, which we've got on the planet, innovating together to solve these big problems. And there was no competition to get there first for trademarks or patents or commercial gain, that we would solve those problems faster because we wouldn't be competing with each other, we'd be collaborating and working together. And universal basic income is definitely a lever and a mechanism that can be used to help us get there. So interesting conversations, man. I'm I could talk to you and I will talk to you more about this stuff.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, maybe next episode we'll just go off track and we'll be more like spiritual and AI. AI AI philosophy and spirituality. Love it.
SPEAKER_03Let's do that. All right, awesome. Thank you, Manish. Look forward to seeing you in a couple of months. All right. Thank you for giving me the episode.
SPEAKER_00Bye-bye. Thank you, man.
SPEAKER_03Hey, thanks for listening to the Agency Our Podcast. It means a lot to us, and I hope you're enjoying this podcast as much as we're enjoying making it. And a massive thanks to Manish for joining us. Thank you once again for sponsoring the podcast. Can't wait to catch up at Mavcon. Okay, folks, if you need to increase your agency's capacity so you can serve more clients and get more of that sweet, sweet recurring revenue, be sure to visit E2M at e2msolutions.com slash agency dash maverick. There'll be a link somewhere near this episode. If you'd like to work with us to grow your agency so you can free up your time, increase your profit margins, and spend more time with the people you care about, then click the link beneath this podcast. Have a quick chat with our team, and we'll get you moving in the right direction. And if you're able to get yourself to the US in October, you can join us in person at our Mastermind Event MaverCon. It's incredible. These events are truly transformational. There really is no substitute to being in a room with Mavericks and working on your agency together. It's transformational no matter what level you're at. And don't forget to subscribe and please share this with anyone who you think may need to hear it. I'm Troy D. Remember, I still love it.