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Crafting Success: Unveiling TradieWebGuys' Secret Sauce with Matt Jones
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I mean it's almost a prophecy, right? Like that whole, you know, you could be the best tradie in the world and be broke because you don't know how to market yourself, right? Or business owner, in fact. Like I can't imagine it's any different in any other vertical. You know, like these are things that you kinda have to take upon yourself to learn, uh, which you're not going to get that information from when you go through the system. That you've got to you've got to go and look for it.
SPEAKER_04Welcome to the Agency Hour podcast, where we help web design and digital agency owners create abundance for themselves, their teams, and their communities. That's the goal, and it works for those who take action. This week we're joined by the go-to trade guy Matt Jones, founder and director of TradeWeb Guides and the site shared and a Mavericks Club member. Matt and his team deliver digital solutions designed specifically for tradies. Today we're diving into the importance of focusing on the outcome for the absolute end user, what clients want versus what they think they want, why you can't just rely on referrals and word of mouth, and why Matt claims you need to have the kahunas to burn it all to the ground. All that and more, I'm Troy Dean. Stay with us. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the Agency Hour Podcast, the one and only Matt Jones. Hey Matt, welcome aboard. Okay. Excellent. Uh now for those that don't know, give us the too long didn't read version. Who are you? How did you get into this game? And what are you doing here?
SPEAKER_01Where am I? Well, uh as you said, Matt Jones, I run a digital agency for specifically for trade businesses. So plumbers, builders, electricians, elect uh yeah, home home improvement, that kind of thing. Um how do I get into this game? Well, I I used to be, I st well I suppose technically I still am a plumber. Um and I many, many years ago took a role with a company in Sydney that was selling the technology to primarily plumbers. And throughout that journey, I noticed that there was a lot of um, you know, a lot of the clients that we were dealing with there were really good at what they do, but really bad at telling people. And um so I did everything completely wrong. I um burned bridges, stole IP, just uh classic no idea how to run a business sort of situation and jumped into my own business, sacrificing any income I had for the little bit that I'd managed to get from a couple of clients whose websites we built. And anyway, that was you know 13 odd years ago, and somehow I was still still afloat.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Wow, yeah. So I always find this interesting though. Simon Major, now full transparency, Matt Jones is a member of Mavericks Club, which is our mastermind. We're not gonna plug that, but you know, uh just so that you know the context of the conversation. One of our other Mavericks, Simon Major, had a similar journey. He was a chiropractor and then sold his chiropractic business, if that's what it's called, and got in, and now it's digital marketing essentially SEO and Google ads for health practitioners, right? Um Do you think and I've known quite a few people who come from tradeyl and end up in this kind of business? Do you think it's a and I also know plenty of people who are coaches and digital agencies for niches and they're publicly like, I'm not an accountant, and that's why I'm the best digital marketing agency for accountants, because I don't have the baggage and the emotional crap that you all have. Do you think it's worked in your favour, or do you think it's been something that you've had to overcome being a plumber and having a plumbing business and now serving tradies as a digital marketing agency?
SPEAKER_01It's it's certainly been an advantage on the forefront of communication and understanding the verticals that we deal with. Like refreshingly an advantage, I think, for the um, you know, the people that we're working with because the typical experience is people just like agencies typically have no idea of what what what it's like to run a business. Because like, and I'm sure we'll we'll sort of unpack this a little bit further as we get on. But the um you know, like for from what we do today, we'll well typically people when they come to us, they're looking for more leads, like lead generation. But like as you unpack that further, it it's very like generating more leads into like businesses that these guys are running the way they're running them today, is is like throwing petrol on a fire sometimes, you know. So there's like these other areas which they don't come to us for, but you know, looking forward in the interest of scalability and being able to manage um you know the the the new influx of leads and the the new sort of model that they tend that we're sort of steering them towards, which to be honest, is like coming from a world where they're used to referrals and word of mouth to a world where all of a sudden they're being thrown into this nasty pond of you know cold traffic with people that don't actually know who they are. And so there's this whole learning curve that has to come as a part of that. And so, anyway, in answer to your question, yes, it has played to our advantage a lot. I mean, I mean, look, truthfully, we're we've been running the agency now for 13 years, so I've probably been I probably have more agency experience than most agencies out there, like at this point in time. But in the early stages it was challenging, like we had to find people, I had to proactively find people that could do what I couldn't do, which was pretty much build websites and learn how to market.
SPEAKER_04And I think we're gonna turn we're gonna talk more about this because you've you know infamously within our circle here, you've kind of known as the guy that's kind of burnt it to the ground and started again, and we'll we'll unpack that a bit more. But um, I don't imagine tradies were ever coming to you going, I need a beautiful looking website. Like they like they just think they need that because it's gonna bring in clients, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, and I would probably imagine that's pretty similar across many verticals, or you'd have more experience in that than me. But yeah, I mean, people people come to you thinking they want one thing, not realizing they actually need another thing. Like it's really common for people who go, Oh, I need a new website. And I go, Oh yeah, why's that? Well, I need more leads, or I need my phone to ring more. You know, they don't really understand the dynamic. And this is, I think, like this again has played into our favour a lot because like a lot of agencies will just give them what they ask for.
SPEAKER_04That's right. That's right. And that was my next question. Like, I imagine that the biggest challenge for tradies, I mean, and my experience of being a consumer of trade services, we moved house early this year, we moved into a new house and we've renovated the front and the backyard and done a bunch of work inside. And I've, you know, and over the years I've had a lot of experience with different contractors coming out to properties and stuff. And one of the things is follow-up, like actually getting them to return you call. So we put solar panels on the roof recently. We had eight old crappy, crappy solar panels on the roof when we bought the house. We got rid of them, we put in a brand new system, 28 solar panels and a 13 kilowatt battery on the side of the house. So I'm trying to it's way too much for what we need, but I'm trying to future-proof the situation. And I opted in via this website where this guy basically sells leads to solar companies, and he's completely transparent about it. He's like, Look, these companies pay me 50 bucks a lead, whether or not you buy from them is irrelevant. I just do my due diligence. I will recommend the three best solar companies I think that are right for you based on your answers to these questions, fill in the questions. I did that. Three companies rang me. I couldn't answer the phone because I've got two kids under the age of seven, and it was, you know, like feeding time at the zoo. One company texted me to let me know that they'd just tried to call and that they would try again tomorrow. The other two guys who called didn't leave a voicemail and didn't text me and didn't email me. So who got the job? The guy that actually texted me to let me know that he'd just called, right? Now, maybe automated, maybe not, doesn't matter. So actually, like follow-up is one thing. And then once they come out and they assess your situation, getting a quote out of them and getting the book in a date is another problem that they're usually not very good at. So my question to you is as an agency, why didn't you just go, well, here's your website, uh, pay the bill, and see you later. And none of that's my problem. Like, why did you start thinking, okay, I need to help them solve these other problems?
SPEAKER_01Well, it wasn't so much that. I mean, the the the it doesn't take doesn't take a long, it doesn't take long for you to start getting feedback saying, hey, I've you built this website for me and my phone isn't ringing anymore. So like there was an obvious disconnect there between what they think they thought they wanted and what they actually wanted, which then at that point back, you know, right back in the beginning, we were only uh building websites, which is you know is a mugs game because you're always chasing a sale. Whereas, you know, the the bigger vision back then was okay, well, how do we get into more of a recurring-based model, which is you know, retainer sort of style for you know marketing services and things like that. And so that was an easy transition, very easy, and um which also opened up a number of problems, which I can elaborate on in the in the space of now you've got recurring revenue and you kind of drop the ball on growth because you're fat and comfortable and you're not like you know, just hungry for the hungry for the next sale, which I've truthfully I've never never really been, which is why now we have salespeople and things like that. But like um, yeah, like it was just more of a case of you know, back in 2016, we sort of went well before 2016, truthfully, like we were sort of in the education space for like TAFE, New South Wales and Department of Education down in Canberra representing sort of trades, sort of more you know, we would go to these roundtable events, I'd be the only guy in the room that didn't have a.gov.edu.au dot blah blah whatever freaking email address. And um, you know, like the the common thread there was well that like they didn't really they didn't understand the dynamic of it, and nor were they expected to because they're used to you know swinging hammers and climbing ladders. So like the responsibility that I sort of brought upon myself was okay, well, we need to educate these guys a little bit better, which then led us down the you know, as you know, the the path with the podcast and all that kind of stuff. And you can't very well go move into like an education space within or probably any vertical if you're not going to be like offer solutions to problems as opposed to like just products that people think they want.
SPEAKER_04Like or just pontificate about the problem but not actually have a solution to it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, yeah, like but I mean if we just kept building websites for people, yeah, good, like they'd have websites, but it wouldn't solve their problem.
SPEAKER_04And then that and then I guess that feeds into the flow wheel of like not getting referrals and not having great word of mouth because even though you build a great website and you deliver it on your promise, the client actually didn't get what they needed, which is the phone directory.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean look referrals from tradies are pretty rare. I could I could I could tell you that much, but like the regardless of how many million dollar jobs you close for them, uh Joe, if you're listening.
SPEAKER_04But anyway, the the uh the um so so has the now I know you've got a Facebook group. Now the podcast we should say is called the Site Shed. The business is called Tradyweb Guys. You've got a Facebook group which is also the Site Shed, is it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well that was kind of off the back of the podcast. We just wanted to build a community where you know people could come and actually converse more as opposed to just listening to me bashing their ears through you know Apple podcasts. So um, yeah, there's a group there, there's like 6,000 odd global businesses or members in that group or whatever.
SPEAKER_04Um and and if if you're not getting refer if you if tradies aren't great at referrals, were you getting most of your incoming leads through the podcast and through the group, or were you doing advertising, were you doing outbound? How are the how are the leads coming in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, most of the work that we we would generate would be through we would we would get referred, we had referral partners, but um, you know, not so much. I mean we I mean we we would get referrals from clients, of course, you know, like we we'd probably send out a thank you gift pack once a month kind of thing, but like it's not like it's a steady, it's not sustainable. And this is the thing that you know, we also I think is a pretty strong message for you know our clients as well. I'm like, you can't just be completely dependent on word of mouth and referrals. Like if you don't have some sort of income uh in stream of leads coming in, then you you're pretty heavily exposed in the space of just being dependent on something that's completely out of your control.
SPEAKER_04100%, which can work for a long time. Well, it'll I mean you you can you can ride that train for a long time, but you're still vulnerable because you don't have your hands on the wheel, you've no control over it.
SPEAKER_01I mean, in in my experience, it's not so much a time thing, it's just uh it's it's just a a ceiling. Like you like typically for trade businesses, we know they're never going to get past 500. Well, depending on the vertical, like if they're builders and they're doing a million dollar home build, you know, like bang, oh, we're a million-dollar business, but it's you know, it's kind of bullshit. Like, yeah, but the point is like you'll never really get past 500-600k, you know, in in in revenue for a for a regular trade business. It's like sort of an average aggregate, like if they're only depending on word of mouth, they just won't. You can't, you just exhaust your network. And so, you know, there comes a point where if you do want to take more control, you actually have to um you've got to invest in some in more of a consistent pattern where you're gonna be generating these leads that that that that that are yours.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I'm curious about the mindset here too. I do want to unpack the business model change, but before we do that, I'm curious about your mindset here. Is like, you know, at some point you make a decision to go down to TAFE, to represent, to fly the flag, to be the advocate, to start a podcast, to start a Facebook group. At some point you make a conscious decision to put yourself out there as the guy who's gonna be the voice for the for this industry. Why? Like what why I mean most people I mean, I get it, right? But but for the people listening and watching, like most people just won't do that because of you know, a hundred reasons and a hundred excuses. Is it just because you are a natural born leader and you or or you just you know love the limelight, or was it a business strategic thing, or was it just a burning desire? Like, because it's not because it's hard work having a podcast and starting a Facebook group and being like a personality, it takes a lot out of you and it's a lot of time and it's a lot of emotional investment into it, and also you put yourself out there and make yourself open to criticism. Why did you make that decision to do that?
SPEAKER_01It's not, I mean, I suppose initially it started as a way just to give back to the industry because you know, we as I said, we sort of have like coming from the the industry, like the plumbing industry specifically, you know, having lots of friends and things like that that are you know trade-based, you see some of those struggles and you see that like the issues that they're typically experiencing are based on the fact that they they just don't have a clear understanding conceptually of like what they need to be able to do over here or what needs to be done in order to help them get to that next stage. And like I said before, it's no one's it's it's not that it's their fault. Like you go through the you know the the the TAFE system or whatever it is, college if you're listening in you know North America, you know, there's there's your there's your trade qualification certification which you can go and get, but that doesn't mean for a second that you're even remotely qualified to run a business. So there's this huge like disconnect there between like, oh well, congratulations, um, here's your certificate now you can go run a business when you're not actually anywhere near qualified to run a business. You don't know shit about running a business. All you do is you just know how to lay climb ladders and you know install drains and that kind of stuff. So then that so that journey, like when I went back into like initially when I went back into TAFE, you know, and I was I was I wasn't like on the payroll or anything. I would just go back in and talk to the um you know the certificate for students that were about to go and get licensed about things they should be thinking about or they need to think about in order to become. I mean, it's almost a prophecy, right? Like that whole um, you know, you could be the best trade in the world and be broke because you don't know how to market yourself, right? Or business owner, in fact. Like I can't imagine it's any different in any other vertical, you know, like these are things that you kind of have to take upon yourself to learn, uh, which you're not gonna get that information from when you go through the system that you've got to you've got to go and look for it, you know.
SPEAKER_04So and also you're not gonna, I don't think you're gonna get that information if you go to a general agency workshop, right? If you go to a general digital agency that serves a whole bunch of different, they're just open for business, right? You are a niche agency. Yeah. I'm also curious about like, did you have to manage any FOMO about, well, you know, I'm not gonna, you know, like I'm accountants and lawyers have more money than tradies, but I'm gonna say no to those guys because I'm just gonna focus on tradies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know. Like, I get asked that a bit actually, like, truthfully, I'd I've just always from the from the beginning just just worked with trade businesses, so I don't really know any different. Like, we we have done projects in the past for I suppose like cross verticals with you know various businesses, but it's always just been like trying to help friends and colleagues out more than anything, not so much like we would never market towards it. And my whole mindset behind that was if you're gonna like you try to be everything to everyone, you end up being nothing to anyone.
SPEAKER_04Yep, 100%, 100%. And like and the riches, uh yeah, the riches are in the niches.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so it's it's I guess it's played pretty well to our advantage. Like we turn we we obvious I mean it obvious or not, like, and probably to maybe I don't know if it's necessarily a good or a bad thing, but we probably turn turn away more work than we than we take in just because they don't fit they don't fit our avatar.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right, got it.
SPEAKER_01And now we're even super picky with even the types of trade businesses that we work with. Like we just you know and and in answer to you like in answer to your question before, you know, like when you're talking about well, you know, why did you go down this path? Like from again, it started as a way that we could kind of give back and then it kind of grew from there because like the more that you sort of like we dipped our toe in the water there in like you know, local TAFE, and then we sort of went a bit bigger and ended up like uh you know representing trades at the Department of Education roundtables in the ACT, and then before we knew it, I was like this like and there and there were people there just like tell me more, like tell me more. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, I'm just some dead shit plumber trying to run this scrappy agency, and no one has a clue. And then I thought, how can we get this message out to the masses? And this is back in 2016, and I thought, I wonder, and and like kind of dumb luck, I guess, but thinking, you know, like the kind of clients that we liked to and still like to work with are the ones that they want to learn, and more importantly, they're willing to try and adopt different processes to help them achieve a different result, unlike you know, you know, a lot of people out there that you know in the in the trades, which are just stuck in their ways, they're like, ain't broke, ain't broke, don't fix it. So we started a podcast in 2016, and that was kind of a cool before it all became cool, and anyone with a computer and a mic did it. Um then, yes, and and that's pretty well established now with almost like 400 odd episodes or something.
SPEAKER_04I've had a few tradies, and I'll talk about the difference between agency and coaching because I think there's a fine line. And I and I know that you kind of do a bit of accidental coaching just because of the nature of the fact that you want to help your clients out. But I I've had a couple of tradies come out of the house, and the minute, like they're on the property two or three minutes, and I know they've got a business coach because their process is so well dialed in. And I ask them point blank, like we have a bit of a conversation, they go around with it. Like, you wouldn't have a business coach by any chance. Oh, yeah, I've got this business coach, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Yeah, because most tradies come out and they have no process at all, right? Yeah, they're like drawing chicken scrawl on the back of a pad paper, whereas the guys that come out with an iPad and they're checking the boxes and they go out and they come back, here's your quote, and it's really well dialed in. Um, how do you how do you draw the line between, well, hey, look, we're an agency, we do this, I'm not your business coach, even though I'm hap willing to give you this advice because I generally want you to succeed. But do you refer some of your clients off to a business coach? I coach all the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, all the time. Right. Yeah, like all the time.
SPEAKER_04Um And I imagine that and I imagine not not to be stereotypical, but I imagine, particularly in the trade industry, that there would be a reluctance to put your hand up and ask for help, right? Because it's a fairly I mean I and I'm making a massive generalization here. It's a fairly masculine kind of macho sort of industry. So I'm like we're in a in our space, or like my wife's a psychologist, they're putting their hand up every five seconds asking for help from other psychologists and other professionals, right? So I imagine that a lot of trades are just like, as you say, if it's not broke, don't fix it. I'm fine, it's all good, I don't need any help. And they're kind of stuck in that mindset.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, again, like probably dumb luck, but you know, through through the you know, the legending sort of the people that we tend to speak to have normally like like my my mindset behind the podcast initially was like, well, this is the kind of the people that I kind of want to work with, are people that want to learn things, and people that want to learn things are people that are gonna put their hand up.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_01So like when people come to us, if they have seen some of the content or the podcast or whatever it might be, you know, they're kind of they're kind of already a further a step further qualified than those that would just come through like a cold Facebook ad, for example. Uh and so like typically leads and stuff that come through the podcast, like they're like they know that they they know like and trust us already. Yeah, like they know we're not full of shit, you know, and it's sort of a step so it was kind of by design, you know, but also um also probably we just got into it at the right time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we we were talking off camera before our best sales conversations are people who have been following the podcast for a few months and they've already drank the Kool-Aid and the Wells.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, that was like me with you guys. Like I I was back when you were W W P elevation, whatever it was called.
SPEAKER_04Like Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Love it. Um now, if you're listening to this, one of the scariest things about pivoting the business model is you might not have the skills or the capacity to deliver the new thing that you know that you want to start offering because that's the right thing that's gonna get your client the outcomes, right? So, for for example, SEO, or for example, if you are a social media management agency and you want to start building websites because you know that that's where you're gonna be able to capture leads for your clients, but you don't have the capacity to do that, one of the things that I see agency owners. Where I see them getting stuck is they say, Well, I can't do that yet because I need to hire someone, but I can't hire someone because I don't understand the process because we've never done this before. And I think even like at worst in the short term, to fill that gap is to use a white label partner to deliver on that stuff. Long term, it might be the best option to keep using a white label partner. It might be profitable, the relationship's good, they've got the infrastructure that you don't need to worry about building, they can project manage, they've got the skill set, they're training their staff, all those problems that you don't have to solve. Long term, you might want to bring that skill set and that capacity in-house to your own agency. Uh, but in the short term, definitely using a white label partner to allow you to make that pivot quickly is a really smart idea. Obviously, our preferred white label partner here is E2M Solutions. They are the exclusive sponsor of the agency our podcast and also our Mavcon Platinum sponsor for our Mavcon live events. Uh so check out e2msolutions.com/slash agency dash mavericks. They do amazing work. We've had great feedback from all of our clients who are using them. Um that you also get a discount on your first months if you uh hooked up with them. So go and have a conversation with them about what it looks like to work with them so that you can make whatever pivot you need to without having to go through the painful process of hiring and training team members. You can just literally plug their team into what it is you're doing and make that pivot quickly so that you can start getting your clients better outcomes. Um now, and you I know because you were leaving comments in the Facebook group, you were watching the live streams, your name was familiar, and then all of a sudden we're on a call. Um so how so let's just fast forward. When did you make a decision? So you you you grew this agency, you got the business model was based on websites and SEO, right? And you were doing a little bit of ad management for clients. When did you make a decision that that wasn't working and that you were going to reinvent your service offering?
SPEAKER_01Man, honestly, like I feel like it's been years, like uh like two years. So as you know, like I had my second child that was just just gone two years ago, and um I knew kind of at that point, I was like, I just wasn't like we were doing the websites, we were running SEO for clients and all this kind of stuff, and like me coming from that background and then trying to sell them on like our reporting, which is all showing green, you know, look, oh you're ranking number one for these keywords, congratulations! And they're like, I don't give a shit, my phone's not ringing, and you're like, hmm. And so I'd been looking for a long time to find a solution to like that problem, which was sort of more outcome focused. And then, you know, maybe six or so months ago, like you say, I just burned it to the ground because I was like, I just was fed up with like selling something that didn't work, like quite honestly. I mean, like, and and I and I say that like a little bit tongue-in-cheek, because I know that it it does work, but what I now know with what we were selling then was it fulfills part of an ecosystem, and it's part of a solution, not the solution for our vertical. And I'm sure other verticals it works great. You know, I speak to Simon and like his clients get all these great results and all this kind of stuff, which is awesome, you know. But like for what we did with our clients, like as trade businesses, it just did it didn't move the needle. But now what we do moves the needle, and so now we can show up to work and we actually feel good about what we're doing, and like and that's that's been like culturally a really big shift, I think, and it sort of got me a bit more re-engaged because like after having our second kid last year, I was just like a couple of years ago, like I really just felt vacant.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and also I think if you like SEO's the long game, right? So if you if what's the it's it's not it's the mid to long game. I think it's the long I think it's important as part of a long-term sustainable strategy because you can get it's very easy to get kind of hooked on turning cold traffic into customers. So I think it is important, but it is the long game. And for tradies, you know, like it's it's as you say, it's part of the solution, but it's not the solution. So what have you dialed in recently that has allowed you what have you stopped doing? Okay, here are the three questions. What have you stopped doing? What did you start doing, and what did you keep doing from your old business? What's been the transformation and what kind of outcomes and impact has that had on your clients' results?
SPEAKER_01Alright, well, I'll tell you what I from the beginning. Like, I went back and I revisited uh vision and mission. And I got real clarity around like I suppose what we wanted, what our vision, what our mission needs to look like in order for me to be able to show up to work and actually be comfortable with it. And and that like had like a bit of a polarizing effect on um well, everything within the agency. Because when I put when I showed the whole team, you know, this whole vision and mission and what we were doing there, like all of a sudden it almost like a snap of a finger made a whole bunch of the services that we were doing completely null and void. And and so that was that was like the beginning, really. I was like, this is the new vision, this is the new mission. If you don't like it, leave. And if you can't, if you don't think what you're gonna do, be able to do here today is gonna help us achieve these goals, leave. And so, and that's still an ongoing conversation, you know, and and and and now like so that was what we that was the beginning of the whole thing, like that was kind of uh like where the eruption began. I was just like fed up like just foundationally with what like what we were what we would what we were delivering there, and then we went back to um okay, how we how do we now uh uh engineer a product or a solution which is um outcome focused? So that's we went down that went down that gamut, then we're like, okay, okay, what does it look like you know, if we're gonna be able to like promote and work with businesses, like how do we how do we give them actually what they want, not what they think they want, or not what we're just selling them as a service, right? I mean that was a big problem. Like back then we were probably like, oh, we'll sell you SEO, or we'll sell you a website. And it's like it doesn't freaking matter, just make the phone ring. Like no one gives a shit about SEO, no one cares about Google ads, no one cares about Facebook ads or bloody Pinterest ads, just get the phone to ring. Like no one cares.
SPEAKER_04And this is the feedback that we just a vi that's just the that's they're just the tools that we implement, the tactics that we implement to actually get the client what they want, which is their phone.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Like it that no one gives a shit. And so you're showing them all these reports, and it's like, oh, look, you're look at all the your positive Google indicators and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, who freaking cares? Like, how many times is the phone wrong and how many of those have turned into jobs? Period. That's it. Like, that's all you need to give a shit about. And so I just we just I just like pulled the samurai sort out and cut through it all. I just went, nah, this is just this is the way it is now. And so now when we're dealing with with businesses, it's like specifically, we will help you get these outcomes, and if we don't, we'll we guarantee you we'll guarantee it, like you don't pay for it kind of thing, and and that's that's been really good for a marketing perspective, and it's been really good now as well because it's helped us like along this journey of the last you know four, five, six months, I suppose, help us really define sort of the avatar that we want to work with who we know we can get better results for, and and then it's also led into and I and I like you know, my whole thing with like not wanting to be a a coach kind of thing, but but as an advisor, like in order then for because all of a sudden you get these you know I've got like messages here in Slack from clients saying, Oh man, I'm just freaking out here because we've got all these leads and now I've got to hire new staff. Like, all of a sudden you have this responsibility now to help them solve the next problem and you know the next step of the equation. So and and that's if you if it's gonna be a sustainable solution, it's gonna help them scale. And scale doesn't always mean up either, by the way. Like, you know, we've got some clients that are like, Look, we want to scale back on doing these 20, 30 grand bathroom renovations and scale into doing, you know, half a million dollar home renows. So scale could have different conversations for different businesses, but if you haven't got a framework around that, then what like or more to the point you haven't got like a system in place which can help them achieve it, then like you just go back to doing what everyone else does, you know, selling SER and websites.
SPEAKER_04And I I think it was um I think it was Feb 2021, we had a virtual MavCon because we're all in lockdown, and I did a presentation called Agency of the Future, and I posed the idea that uh if you can't you can't solve, you can't do everything for your clients, right? Like you're not gonna get on the phone and close deals, you're not gonna go out and write votes for your clients.
SPEAKER_01But that's evolved too, but we'll get to that in a minute if we want.
SPEAKER_04Um But what you the problems that you can't solve for your clients, the the idea that I posed was it's a combination of done for you and information or done for you in education. So, hey, we do this for you, we can't do that bit for you, but here are some frameworks and here are some templates and here are some checklists that you can follow to improve that part of the business. We're not going to do it for you, but we can educate you and help you get better at it. Where do you, and I lead into this conversation, where do you draw the line and say, well, you know, that's outside of the scope of the services and the skill set that we've got. That's something that you have to take responsibility for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's like a line in the sand, like what's in scope and what isn't. I mean, and and like because it's different, right? And this and this is the thing, and this is what I was saying, you know, say to the you know, a team yesterday in a meeting, you know, we have to like you expect, like when people come to us for a problem and say it's like we need more leads, great, like we'll solve that problem for you, which is then gonna cause a bottleneck of the next stage. So you've got to help them overcome these hurdles, otherwise it's all gonna fall over, right? So there's no point doing the initial thing if you can't help them with the follow-up things because you know, like it's like these things happen in order and in stages, and every business business is different. I mean, like even marginally different sometimes, but like the point is you you've got to help them understand the different pro because it's it is new for them, and they're coming, like I was saying earlier, you know, they come from this this world of doing something a certain way, and then all of a sudden you've you you've got you've got to help them embrace this other system, they've got to want to do it, and that's the thing. Like, they've got to actually want to so you know, this is what we can help you with, but they they've still got to get off their ass and do the thing, or they've got to follow you follow your advice. And for the better part, that that's the kind of businesses that we attract. It's like you know, we've like a new, we've got a client, and and and you know, I'll tell you for anyone out there that's listening to this, you know you're on the right track when you have clients that come back to you. So they go jump ship because the grass is greener, and then they end up coming back. You know, we have we've had that numerous times. So you kind of know you're on a onto something good when that when that happens, and like some of these businesses, like we brought a client on last week, and he's you know, he's got doing a million almost doing a million bucks a month, you know, like very well established, you know, businesses. But like like during an onboarding call, like like snap of a finger, I could just see where like part of his process is falling over because like we have this collective data set from so many different businesses in different verticals and different locations around the world that are doing the same sort of thing. And like as an advisor, you kind of get to see what's working, you know. So it's kind of ignorant to and I think again, like part of the responsibility in that position is to help people with those different steps of the process to so they can improve across the board. Because if you don't, it's just gonna come back to stage one where oh your ads don't work when it's not the ads, it's the fucking projects.
SPEAKER_04Follow-up, that's right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. The the bucket's leaky. Uh, I imagine dealing because you know, dealing with referrals is super easy, right? You get to someone's property, it's like, oh, my brother-in-law referred, you know, I've got your contact deaths from my brother-in-law, it's like it's a no brainer, but we're shooting fish in a barrel. Whereas a cold lead, you have to present in a different way, right? You so so what is what are the some of the things because I imagine that I'm when I ever whenever I hire a trade, the first thing I do for is look for the five-star reviews on Google, right? Who's got the most five-star reviews? Can you give me a practical thing that you've dialed in to help your tradies with this new kind of model? Is it all around social proof and building online trust? Like, give me a eventually I mean yes and no.
SPEAKER_01Like, I'll tell you right now, tying into your whole solar conversation. Like one of the verticals that we work with today is solar. And you know, even this client that came on board is doing like almost a million bucks a month. Like when we're going through, you know, in our onboarding call, like through the sales process, like the biggest bottleneck, and so sure, like, yep, they're answering phone calls, they've got a team in place to do that because they've got like four or five office staff or whatever, sure. And then but when you break it down like pr like from in the process, and you go, okay, well, what are you actually doing after the call? You know, oh, we go to site, we we send the guys out to site, we like, you know, then we give them a quote, and or then we come back to the office and we prepare a quote and all this stuff, and I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, like I know you've been doing this, and like on paper it looks like it's working, but this whole process is fucked. Can I swear in this podcast?
SPEAKER_04Of course you can.
SPEAKER_01Good. Yeah, um, you just did. Sorry, Max, you might have to beep that one out.
SPEAKER_04Ask forgiveness, not permission. I love it, man.
SPEAKER_01Um and so there's little things there that you can help them adopt which can like have significant improvement immediately, effective immediately, in the space of how you can preserve resource and save time with the what you the way your current process is working, not just for you, by the way, but for the for the for the customer as well. Like, what let me ask you this. If that solar guy came out to your home, right, and like he did the iPad thing, great, looked professional, awesome, got a quote, like quote on the spot, great, take a deposit. Did he do that? No fuck not. Like, how much time have you got? I mean, you've got a lot of time you're sitting in the hot tub on it. I don't know that, but like like for the for most people, like why why is that his mindset where we're like, okay, let me go back to the office and send you a quote in a few days and then spend the next two months following you up to get no results because you've gone and shopped that quote for the cheapest price. Like, just turn that freaking quote into an invoice right there and then take a deposit, bang, job scheduled.
SPEAKER_04Like, this is the thing I'm just and I and I would have, I would have, if he'd, if he'd if he, because I'd I'd stayed, I'd made the time to stay home that day and have him and his colleague come out, showed them around the property. We had a really great conversation around electric vehicles and the Tesla charger and how that was going to play in. And I wanted a Tesla battery on the side of the house. They talked me out of it because of the ACDC conversion, and you're gonna lose about 25% of the efficiency. And I'm like, I'm in, guys, like whatever you want to put on the house and on the side on the roof and on the side of the house, just do it. I'm in. I trust you guys, right? I could I would have given him a thousand dollar deposit there and then on the day, but he went back to the office. I don't know why they're processing. They went back to the office, they used some Python proposal app that they sent me, a picture of everything, and we went back and forth and made a few changes. And who the fuck cares, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, I don't care if it's a thousand fucking kilowatts and this and that, and fucking like just give me the outcome.
SPEAKER_04And the thing is, they could have changed the scope. I would have paid the deposit, and then we could have gone back and forth and changed the scope of the proposal, but I would have paid the deposit and committed to them there and then on the day, because then as far as I'm concerned, the decision's made. And you schedule. And that's a loop, right, and I right, and that's a loop I can close in my head. I'll give you another example. I had to chase them up to find out when my installation date was, which kind of pissed me off. And I've told them that, and they have they've been re-jigging their processes internally, and I've been watching it as a customer going, Yeah, I see what you're doing, but the communicate like they just kept emailing me all these details about my installation date, which we're going to spam. And I said to them, just fucking text me and tell me that you've sent me an email. Hey Troy, just sent you an email about your installation date, check your spam folder. Right? I found it by accident the day before they were supposed to come out and do the install. So I had to tell my wife, hey, tomorrow morning there's going to be about eight blokes walking around the army.
SPEAKER_01I can't be in the hot tub tomorrow morning, babe. Sorry.
SPEAKER_04Correct. It must be really tough for you, sorry. It is. So little things like that where where, from a consumer's point of view, I see how it's just their communication could have been improved, right? I can't fault their work, but the communication could have been improved. I'm just gonna ask you this question again, Matt. Most agencies wouldn't give a shit about this. They would just say, oh, well, sorry, dude, like that's your problem. You know, not not my business, you know? It's good, isn't it? Yeah. So so like is it is it just because you gen Like I know that there is I know that there's a positive flywheel here for you because if you help your clients succeed, you're gonna get more referrals and you're generally just gonna feel better about the work that you're doing anyway.
SPEAKER_01Again, like in the interest of burning the business to the ground and starting again and being outcome focused, it's about the outcome. Right, it's about the outcome. And the outcome is not like sure, more leads, yeah, awesome, but that's not the outcome. The outcome is more closed jobs and happy customers, yeah, right? So if you don't help with the process, you don't help them evolve that process, then like you're not really achieving anything.
SPEAKER_04So it's interesting you just said that the outcome is more uh closed deals and happy customers, right? Now, when you say happy customers, you're talking not about the solar companies, you're talking about the solar company's customers. Correct. Right? So the outcome is that you want to you want to help the solar company or whoever it is get more happy customers, which is interesting because you know, we got a testimonial, Simon Major shared a testimonial recently that he got from a podiat um podiatry clinic, and the the clinic manager emailed Simon and said, Hey, just want to let you know, all the clinicians are fully booked up, everyone's super happy, and it's all coming through the search results, and we love everything you've done. He took a screenshot, shared it with me, I shared it with the team. Well, I actually go, like, the the level I go to is there's some guy in Diamond Creek now who's getting relief for back pain that he's had for 10 years because he's found the right podiatrist because of the work Simon's team have done while Simon was on the back of a boat in Croatia for five weeks having a holiday, because we've helped Simon grow his agency. So that's why we get out of bed. Like, I think about the absolute end user of the impact of the work that we're doing. Yeah, why in your case, it's like some guy's now got solar panels on his roof and is super happy because you helped that solar company get their shit together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, that's the thing. And then you look at Simon, right? Like, you know, and like Simon's a prime example because I suppose when he came to you, like he's like, Don't give me any more work, just help me with the processes, right? So like, but if you had said, Oh, cool, we can help you with more work and here's more leads, and it's like, well, that doesn't solve any problems. That just again throws more problems.
SPEAKER_04It's gonna create more problems. He was explicit about that. He said, Do not tell me how to get clients. I've got referrals and clients coming out of my ears. I've got a team problem and a process problem, and we're overwhelmed. I need to fix that. And to this day, he's still not really doing any marketing. He's tripled his business since working with us. He was already seven figures when he started, and it's all been through referrals and words. So he's now 21 figures? Something like that. His uh his team, um, his team are now uh, you know, I mean, as you know, he just spent five weeks in Europe on holiday completely out of the business and didn't miss a beat. Um so okay, so what is so when someone comes to you now, so like what are the what are the services that you're offering? Like, are you still building websites and doing SEO campaigns?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we do, but there's like like we do all that stuff, but we just don't, it's not like like when people are coming to us, it's not a matter anymore of which product or which service. It's looking at like what their outcomes need to be, and they're designing a solution which might include a bunch of services which can help them get that. So, yes, we have developers and we build websites, we do that, but like sometimes like half the people that come to us don't need a website, so we're not gonna build a new website. What's the point? They've got a website, and to be honest with you, we have like and now I say this to like you know, our guys all the time, like our well, our not so much our well, our clients as well, truthfully, because like as soon as I come on board, they're like, right, go fix all this shit. I'm like, listen, need to have, nice to have. Let's focus on need to have, and then we can work on all the nice to have, like, you know, down the track. Yeah, nice to haves at the moment for you, like websites are nice to have. Like, you don't you don't need it's not gonna solve your immediate problem. What you need right now is leads.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_01And you need a and you need a lead management system. That's the biggest thing. Like, they don't have they don't have any systems, they've got no process, right? It's just like the phone rings, we answer it, we never call them back. Like it comes through to my mobile, like what a it's just a total clusterfuck. So you know, like you've got to again zooming out and looking at the bigger picture, like back, you know, a year ago or two years ago, we'd be like, Well, sure, we'll build your website and we'll do your SEO. Great, job done from our you know, from our end. Oh look, all your uh indicators are showing green. Awesome, but like it doesn't solve any, it doesn't solve the problem. So then all that leads to is well, we've spent all this money with you building these websites, we're doing all this SEO stuff, but like we want this outcome.
SPEAKER_04Yep, and then eventually the clients churn, and then you've got to go replace them with another client and the whole thing, you know. Um, uh from a tech stack point of view, you're a high-level reseller, white label high-level, right? So are you using is that kind of the engine room that you're using for all of the clients in terms of lead management and sales pipeline management and all that good stuff?
SPEAKER_01And the bit yeah, exactly. Uh it's just we just do it because it's easy, to be honest. Like before we we were all we were still are, you know, like active campaign resellers and all this shit, but like you just in the in the interest of simplicity and of just understand as well, like we're dealing with dudes that are out on the road halfway up a ladder like all day, like for them to be able to use one app instead of 15 different ones, like it's a it's a simplification of you know, all of this all of this stuff, which can help them with various stages, you know, various areas and departments within the business.
SPEAKER_04How how risky was it for someone listening to this? Like you had uh your second child was not even two, but you've got this business, which is you know, you work really hard to To build. You go into the m Maldives every year with a bunch of people having a you know a mastermind retreat, right? On on on paper on the surface, everything's looking pretty good, right? How scary was it to say, you know, I'm gonna burn this to the ground because I don't believe in it and I'm gonna reinvent it, and you like you backed yourself.
SPEAKER_01I mean, to truthfully, it's been scarier doing it the other way. Yeah, yeah. Because I was living a fucking I was living a lie.
SPEAKER_04Yes, I get that. I get it because you and I have spoken about this enough, and I get it, and I get the mindset of it. But a lot of people, I think, listening to this don't believe they have what it takes to actually deliver outcomes for clients and deliver results.
SPEAKER_01But do you know why that is? And so they because they don't have the ability to deliver outcomes for their clients and results. But that's that's the reality. So you've got to go figure it out.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_01And that's the hard that's the hard part. Like it took me two years to figure it out.
SPEAKER_04Took you two years to figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're trying to find the right solutions, meet the right people, like whatever, you know. The whole time, it's just like a worm in the back of my head just going, Fucking fix this, idiot. You're an idiot, you're selling bullshit.
SPEAKER_04Like, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's not it wasn't a weekend decision, right? It was something that was playing on your mind for a long time. Um I mean, I just think I know, I get it. Like it would like Seth Godin talks about the comfort zone and the safety zone, right? He says they're two very different things. Like your comfort zone is the unsafest place to be, but it's just easier for a lot of people, I think. And I'm just posing the question because I know there's a lot of people thinking that listening to this right now, thinking, well, the you know, my core skill set is websites, SEO, and care plans. How do I make the pivot to like Yeah, but that might that might work for their vertical?
SPEAKER_01Like that it's it's not this is the thing. Like, you just got to figure out what the right solution is for you know for your customers and be realistic about it, like what they actually want. Like that works for some some verticals. Simon's proof of it, it just doesn't work for ours, for mine. Yeah, and so yeah, like, and yes, it was considerably easier when all we had to do was sell a website and sell an SEO program, and then just go do nothing off the back of it, pretty much, like while the team do all the delivery, and I literally didn't really have much to do. And now, like, I've never been busier in the business, I've never been more stressed, I've never had more uh like team members having to keep training them up, like recording ad copy and all this kind of stuff, like it's all kind of new, but like over time, like we'll systemise that too, and piece by piece remove myself from it. But like, yeah, it's it's it is stressful, and most people don't want to sign up for that, and I don't blame them, let's be honest.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But as you said, it's it's you felt like there was no alternative because you didn't believe in what you were selling, you'd kind of lost faith in it.
SPEAKER_01I mean, if you look at the timeline of I suppose my business as from conception, like it's been a constant state of evolution. And anyone that doesn't do that, I think you're freaking kidding yourself. Like if you think you could just run a business like the way that you did 13 years ago when you set it up, you should you need to have a serious head check.
SPEAKER_04I mate, I was I've been down deep down the AI rabbit hole, as you know, we're we're all playing with AI here. But I've I someone showed me something yesterday, and like if you're a like I saw this thing yesterday, it's called 10x web, 10web.ai. 10 web AI, right? I mean, this is uh this is a piece of AI that will build you a WordPress website in about three minutes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, no, I've seen that.
SPEAKER_04Right. Uh and I'm like, if if you're and I'm also a big fan of ReLUM and Framer, which are two other resources I've been playing with a lot lately, I reckon if you're just taking Photoshop files or Figma files and turning them into websites and that's your skill set, I reckon you're cooked. I reckon your days are numbered. And I think there's gonna be I think there are big, you know, I think you need to understand what is the value that we're because I sure AI can build your website, but if you publish that without proofreading it, you it's probably not gonna be the outcome, right? So the I think the value is in the strategy. I've been saying that for a long time now, and I think even now it's true more so than ever. What are you doing with AI to help you improve efficiencies? And are you kind of just looking at it on the periphery or are you kind of getting your feet wet?
SPEAKER_01No, we use we use AI for all sorts of things, you know. Like, um, and I think you're pretty much making yourself further and further redundant if you don't. But like again, yeah, strategically you've got to be able to, you know, the whole prompt engineer sort of mentality, like it, like it's become a it's become a case of how do you use this efficiently to our advantage instead of using it like necessarily as just a way to straight up cut corners. And yeah, you look at like exactly like if like if you're if you're a if you're a web developer and your your whole thing is building coded websites today, like how long do you reckon that's gonna be around for? I mean like this space moves quick, you know? Like that's right, and so you've got to you've got to be forward thinking enough to figure out okay, well, what's like and you've got to be able to use these technologies to your advantage where it suits your business, but you don't want to be replaced by it.
SPEAKER_04That's right. I think the opportunity is to leverage AI to do your job more efficiently, to free up. I think here's the thing AI is gonna free up a lot of time. Most people are gonna fill that time exploring more AI and producing more shit that nobody wants. Yeah, I think the opportunity is to spend that time that you've got just sitting and thinking, talking to customers, designing better products and doing better marketing. But I don't I think most people aren't gonna do that, they're just gonna end up playing with AI and producing more shit because that's the easy thing, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. So, and that's the and that's probably you know, like doing things without you know, some sort of a strategic objective, you know, like I mean, I just get over, I mean, even like on the coaching calls, I'm just like, oh man, another AI tool, great, because like I'm a sucker for it, like I just need to go and get it and sign up for it and test it all, you know. So stop doing that. Um, but some of it is helpful, you know, like there's things there, or I was like, in the interest of saving time, like it's been on my whiteboard for a long time to come up with a content strategy, and then all of a sudden we found this tool which you introduced to, which I can't remember the name of, but like it's been bang, content strategy, you know, version 1.0 done here. Content girl, yeah, go and work on this and hurry up.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think that's the thing, having like Max and I talk about AI a lot, but I think you've got to have someone in the business that owns the process and then use the robots to do the mechanical work, but someone has to own the process and it's got to fit in with you know what you're trying to achieve strategically. Hey, I could talk about this for weeks, uh, and we will more. I'll probably, you know, I'd love to have you back on the show to go a little bit deeper into some of this stuff. What's um what are you most excited about? Two questions. What are you most excited about over the next 90 days? And if someone's listening to this and they think that they want to get more into this delivering outcomes for clients, what's the first thing they should do?
SPEAKER_01Just like figure out how to do it. I mean, you just gotta. I don't know how to cut corners. It took me two years to figure it out. I really don't know how to cut corners with it.
SPEAKER_04Like, and what were you just talking to, were you talking to customers and experimenting?
SPEAKER_01I just knew I I knew what we were doing wasn't delivering the outcome. Like coming from that background and putting myself in their shoes, you know, like I know what I would have expected. But I mean, so yeah, I mean, I suppose like if you're gonna if you're sitting there pondering this, I would say the first thing you need to do would be to really understand, okay, what what is it they actually want, and don't get caught up in what you're selling and your services, because quite frankly, that's got nothing to do with it. Like, figure out what is the actual outcome that they want, and then figure out, okay, well, how can we go about building this out? And when you're doing that, like, what are the resources available? What are the are there are there are there are there software's tools, coaches, like consultants, like what what is available to help me achieve this outcome? And then like go make a decision, or don't.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a key distinction, I think, is actually deciding that this is gonna be the new way and not half asking it, like actually committing to a decision.
SPEAKER_01But it's uncomfortable. I mean, change is uncomfortable for everyone, every anyone. But like, again, like adapt or die, you're green and growing, or you're ripe and rotting, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, love it, love it. Put that on a chance. I will. You're green and growing or you're or you're ripe and rotting. Ripe and rotting, I love it. Uh, what are you most excited about over the next 90 days? Um apart from the AFL grand final, of course. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Super pumped about that. Um I I really have this just vision of me working less in the business by getting the right team members on board. I've had that. I mean, is that I don't know if that's a 90-day goal. Like, we've got a new salesperson coming on, we've got like KPIs they should be hitting and all this kind of stuff. Like, there's this, you know, you feel like just one step forward, two steps back sometimes. So, yeah, my third my 90-day goal would be to be less involved in just the the the shit that we're doing at the moment, which would involve having the right team members on board, better marketing, maybe better processes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Have you blocked time in your calendar? Have you blocked time in the calendar? Have you said on this date I'm gonna start taking Friday afternoons off every second week?
SPEAKER_01Not really. Um because quite honestly, I I don't I I just don't have the time at the moment.
SPEAKER_04But like I will from my experience, you'll never have the time. And you if and the the the thing that most people do is they wait until the business hits a certain point before they take every second Friday afternoon off. And in my experience, what's worked for me is I got to a point where I was burnt out and I just couldn't come back to the business because I couldn't look at a computer. I was gonna scream at someone. And I said to Emily, uh, this was before uh she became CEO, I said, uh she was ops manager. I said, I'm not coming back, I'm taking another two weeks. Because if I have to come back now and start making decisions, they're gonna be bad decisions because I'm gonna make them fast because I just want it to go away. And I took another two weeks and then I came back on light duties, and then a couple of months later I promoted her to CEO. And what I've realized is if you actually start taking every second Friday afternoon off, the business will get to that milestone a lot quicker than if you wait for it before you start taking everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I suppose the missing piece there would be having that team member in place that you could sort of leave in charge of those kind of things, which at the moment I haven't got. Yep. So it's kind of getting the right people, you know, on the right seats. And it just at the moment it's just just takes just going to take work a bit.
SPEAKER_04But also when like I remember when I had when we had Oscar, uh, he would sleep for about 45 minutes and then he would wake up. And so I would wheel his bassinet out to the home office, I'd I'd go right, he's asleep, I'd work like crazy for 45 minutes, he would wake up and then I was done. I was more productive in that 45 minutes because I realized that I got all this shit that I just don't need to do. I've got 45 minutes and I can get that done. It's the most important thing. What I learned this from one of these things from James Shremko. He said, Take if you if you want to know what needs fixing in the business, take Tuesday off, come back to work on Wednesday, and whatever fire, whatever's on fire, fix the system so that never explodes again. Right? Now that might be auctioning that off to a team member, it might be improving a process, it might be firing a bad client, it might be killing something that you've been doing that you don't need to. When you take the time off, you come back to the agency, you come back to the business and go, that's the problem. How do I fix it so that never happens again? Because I'm taking next Friday afternoon off again, and I don't want to come back to the same fire. And you it helps you get very clear very quickly about who you need or what you need to change or who you need to move on or who needs to take on more responsibility. So that's just been my experience. Get a hot tub, mate. Hot tubs are great, it's very hard to work in a hot tub because shit gets wet. Hey, um, this has been awesome. Where can people reach out? And uh, and if there are any tradies listening, they should join the Facebook group. They should listen to the site shed podcast. We'll put the links in the show notes of this. Where can people reach out and say good day and connect?
SPEAKER_01I'm not I'm not hard to find. Like the v site shed is the podcast and the Facebook group and the website. Uh Tradie Web Guys is the agency, and we're pretty much those across everything. And social, I'm at IM V Matt J, pretty much everywhere. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm not hard to find at all. Um so yeah, if you can reach out.
SPEAKER_04Well, thanks for joining us on the agency hour. I really appreciate you coming on and having a chat with us. I know a lot of people will learn a lot from this and be inspired. And uh look forward to seeing you at our next event. Or the one after. Not the one in the States, the one after in Australia. Thanks, mate. Thanks, Matt. Cheers. Hey, thanks for listening to the Agency Hour podcast, and a massive thanks to Matt for joining us. We really appreciate your honest insights, mate, and we'll definitely get you back on the podcast in the future. Okay, folks, don't forget to subscribe and please share this with anyone you think may need to hear it. I'm Troy Dean. Stuff stuff, dudes.