We're dealing with people, so occasionally there can be misalignment. That happens in any business in the world that that is involving in the sourcing of people. So we've got to watch that very, very carefully. Um both from an expectations point of view or occasionally again if there is misalignment, we have to, you know, be on the front foot if you like in managing that.

Welcome to the Agency Hour podcast, where we help web design and digital agency owners create abundance for themselves, their teams, and their communities. That's right, abundance beats scarcity every single time. This week we're joined by Drew LaFortia. Drew holds an executive MBA, has over 10 years' experience working with offshore teams, and as general manager of Connect OS, now heads up the Australian and New Zealand regions, responsible for client relationships and business development. In this episode, we dive into the challenges around sourcing staff, the business model for a staffing solution company, how to filter out bad talent and attract good talent, and which offshore roles agency owners should be exploring. I'm Troy Dean. Stay with us. A little bit of background, just give people the too long didn't read version. Who are you? What do you do, and why are you here on the Agency Hour Podcast?

Sure. So uh as you said, I work for a company called ConnectOS. I'm a general manager there, basically responsible um for you know client management, client development in Australia and New Zealand at the moment, where we're expanding to other markets as well. Um and why am I here? I was I hope I've answered all the questions, Troy, but I've got introduced by uh well Josh Moore at Ju Plus. We've done a bit of work with them in sourcing candidates um for our model, which is offshore staff based in the Philippines in a managed services model.

Great. So let me just unpack that. Josh Moore, for those listening, is one of our Mavericks Club mastermind members. He was looking to expand his team when he first started working with us. Uh, he frankly didn't have enough people uh on his team and he uh had never used team offshore at that point, I don't believe. And so we encourage him to explore this. He went digging, he found you guys, you guys are a star integrated resource solution, is what it says on your website, but you're a staffing solution company for people, companies who want to hire and grow a team in the Philippines, which has a whole bunch of, having been there and done it myself, a whole bunch of headaches and a whole bunch of problems that you're gonna have to solve along the way. You guys solve a lot of those problems for your clients and just match your clients with staff in the Philippines, correct?

Correct.

Yeah. So um, first of all, how did you get into this? I know we were talking a little bit about this pre-show, but just give the audience a rundown. How did you get into this business model?

Yeah, so thanks for so again, sort of very high level. I've got been showing my age a little bit here, but over 20 years experience in business development relationship management. And through that, um, I worked for a company, quite a well-known publisher called Lexus Nexus, well over 10 years ago now. Um, and they went down the path like a lot of Australian companies on I outsourcing their administration team at the time. So I was in a sort of senior role managing that, um, got a feel for it day to day, really saw the value in doing it. Um, and then through other roles, again, I was in a GM role managing it, managing a team offshore and built close relationships. So again, had gotten all of a grassroots feel. Um, and then the Connect OS opportunity came about three years ago for me. Um, you know, very exciting journey as a business given the level of growth. You know, it was a um the sort of short version there when I started, as I touched on, Troy, we were at about 130 stuff on our books, and now three years later we're approaching 1200. You know, we're on the BRW number 29th, I believe, uh, last year. And um, and you know, we've got some other, well, we're now the the number one ranked, not to plug the business too heavily, but number one ranked based on job street in indeed, which is um relevant because that's that's um assessed by what employees think of us rather than other corporates. So that that's plays an important role in us attracting the right candidates. So I look very passionate about the space, Troy, and and you know, it's very exciting, and I think that's where the world's heading for a lot of lot of companies.

Totally. I mean, this COVID's really accelerated this, I think. Um, you know, everyone's heard a horror story. Everyone's a lot of people listening to this podcast have been through a horror story of trying to hire staff, whether it's local or remote, whether it's the Philippines, whether it's Indonesia, whether it's, you know, South America, wherever, whether it's next door in the next street. Uh what are some of the challenges if if people are like and and maybe, you know, Josh is an example, people are just getting into this for the first time. What what are some of their blind spots, the things that they're not thinking about that they should be? Um, and you know, again, not to plug your business too much, but maybe how how do you help them with those, how do you help them accelerate that journey and not have to kind of go through that those challenges on their own?

Yeah, that's a great, great question. I think I'd I'd probably answer that in two levels. One, um, I guess as an industry, we absolutely deal with those perception issues, no question. There are, you know, that there are reputations on cowboys, some cowboys playing in our space. Um, that is absolutely something we have to deal with and understand we've got to push through that as a brand. Um part of it too, I'd say, why is, well, firstly, why is that perception there? There have been issues, I think, on a lack of transparency in the industry, and that's something we're trying to address in our model. So, number one is an example. If we if you're using a service like ours, um, you get charged lump sum amounts, and you have no idea what you're really paying for within that. And then there was an issue recently, I gathered, that that where there was, I'll just say big end of town, and there were some things that came out, and they realized there was some some, let's just say gouging going on, and I won't say more than that. So, transparency can be a lack of issue. And we've certainly you know tried to address that in our model with being very transparent on what we charge, what the employee earns, and so forth. Um to come on on your question on on, I guess, some of the challenges around it. I think there certainly with with people that go direct, so as opposed to using a model like ours, if people go and try and source staff direct on sites like Upwork and other equivalents, um you know, there are risks around that, and that in some ways can tarnish the whole space because it there are things that can happen. You can get very good staff, but equally these issues around people working two or three roles at once is one example, disappearing after three months, and you really don't have any any recourse because it's a different legal jurisdiction. Um, so those things can again tarnish the whole industry. Um, part of the value in what what not just us, but providers like us, where you are employing them under local labour law contracts means they can't be working two or three jobs at once. You don't tend to disappear after after three, four months. Um, so that offset some of that. But again, you're dealing with those perception issues, um, Troy, I think, can can be part of it. And I think beyond that, look, I I again I as you say I don't want to be plugging us too heavily, but there are there it is quite involved in in setting up a business in the Philippines. And um certainly the founder is for more the expert here than me, but um understanding that there's just it's just difficult to set up an offshore business, there's a lot of uh different processes and there's things take longer than you think. Um you know, I think the investment we put in our business on a track in the right candidate that that takes time, you know, and you're you're dealing with one of the values of what we do as a low-cost resource. So if you're like you have to play the longer game, you can't charge huge money, but but it takes time to build that brand at the same time. You you can't, and you wouldn't want to, up your rates to you know increase cash flow in the short term to make ends meet. So it's a yeah, it's a bit of a tide rope for any business, I think, starting out in this space in the first few years.

I mean, it makes sense. So so just to be clear, you know, I've have been to Manila uh, you know, several times. Uh I've hired staff over there, we've fired staff over there, I have I have friends over there who run BPOs in the Philippines. It is a different world because you are, as you say, you you you know you're not dealing with the same bureaucratic structure that you might be used to dealing with in Australia or the US. Um, and you're right, someone hires someone in the Philippines on upwork and they go missing after three weeks, and all of a sudden they say, Oh, well, I tried to hire some of the Philippines and it didn't work. Right? It's like someone who launches launches a Facebook ad campaign and the first campaign doesn't work. So they say Facebook ads don't work. One of the most profitable companies on the planet, and their whole business model is advertising, and you're trying to tell me the Facebook ads don't work. It's not that Facebook ads don't work, it's just that you haven't figured out how to get them to work for you. So the uh the I think there's a lot of fear, and I think there is and also it just ends up going in the too hard basket, right? Because it is um now now one of the things that I I know from personal experience is that it takes a bloody long time to find and onboard good talent into your business. As I said, whether you're hiring them in your own office or on the other side of the planet, and I think, and again, we're not here to plug Connect OS, but but the reality is you're in this business. Uh the one of the advantages of using a service provider like yourself is that this is your core business. You're do- you're recruiting, you know, lots of talent on a daily basis, and you are, you know, TopTal is another example of, I mean, they they will publicly say they only hire, you know, the top 3% of the talent. So obviously you're paying a premium for that talent and their infrastructure, but you're saving time having to go through that process yourself. Well, what I'm curious about is what do you do? How do you filter out the good talent from the the not so good talent? And and what do you do to attract those people to Connect OS? Because it's there's a lot of there's a lot of providers like you. There must be there must be dozens of places, hundreds of places where talent in the Philippines can go to try and get these opportunities. How are you attracting good talent for your clients?

Yeah, good again, very good question. So I I I'll so the two parts of the question, I'll I'll talk, I guess, in terms of our process and then the brand, because I think they're they are separate points. Um, the brand being again, how do we attract the right talent? And I'll unpack that a little bit. But on the on the process. And some of these responses, Troy, I I don't want to um, I mean, they are going to be sort of common sense things I'll say, because you know, the yes, you know, you do need good stuff in the recruitment team that know what they're doing, that understand the market. And, you know, you I don't, as I'm sure your audience would expect. Um, but but there is some nuance around that on how they, you know, literally how they go about screening camp you know campaigns. You know, the communication piece, funnily enough, is that there's actually very good comms, you probably know in the Philippines across the board, but uh understanding some of the nuance on certain roles, especially when marketing is a good example, actually, where um you know you you do need to look below the surface if it's SEO and there's you know, you look look at scripts and so forth. So having a really strong recruitment team that understand the market, you know, kind of kind of goes without saying. Um look, I I think and sweet some ways it'd be good to have a recruiter on the call with me because they they can go on some of the new ones, but but you know, that they they do manage that process really well. On on the brand, on attracting the right talent, um you know, that there's I could unpack that a lot. But there's there's starting with the basics, so where we're located, for example. Now, parts of Manila, BGC, McCarty are good examples, um, where they're actually against military grounds that were converted to office space over time. Um nothing wrong with that, they're they're good precincts, but depending on the staff, they're not necessarily as accessible as other parts of Manila. Um, we have deliberately located in Mandelong, which is right next to the EDSA Freeway. Um, so very accessible from public transport and driving into the office. That's a that's a big deal in a city like Manila's totally. You know, most populated city in the world. Um, densely populated city in the world. So that that's a big part. Now, even the office room, it's there, the mega megatower, and it's uh that's a really it's a really high quality building. So it's a great environment for the staff to be in. It's fully it's not surrounded by concrete, natural light. You know, the office are really kidding out as good as what you'd see in Melbourne or or any other you know major city in Australia. So they're on proper, you know, great working conditions, 120 centimetre desks, large flat screen TVs. Um, you know, we do a lot of a very strong HR focus in the team. And it's I do occasionally say this in conversations with potential clients, and but the the idea that internally, you know, there is absolutely a focus on looking after the team. But as I say, how does that play out in practice? So the these team building activities on a monthly basis, often staff that might only be one staff for a company, a group with others in a similar industry, so they feel like they're they're they're part of it. Um you know, the fact that we're located above the mega mall is a big deal from a local point of view. So the mega mall is the sixth largest shopping centre in the world, I gotta because if you think about their lifestyle, Troy, they they start early than us, they're two or three hours behind, depending on what time of the year it is. So they typically start early, finish early, they go straight down from the megatower down to the mega mall, do their shopping, go home. So these are big draw cards from a lifestyle point of view in terms of getting the talent. Um, you know, other these sound like little things in isolation, but things like having a MESUS. Um it sounds cute, but again, that these are all little draw cards. So you know, all these sort of pieces add up to what why are we getting you know ranked right now? The number one based on job street, just owned by SIC. These are credible things. So they really do look at that in terms of which managed service provider I'm gonna work for. Um and that that sort of you know completes the picture.

And they have choices, right? They they they like that there is an abundance of opportunity for uh for Philippine talent at the moment because uh, you know, companies in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, the UK are looking for talent. There's obviously uh not only economic benefits, but there's also just popular like there are just numbers, right? Like I talk I talk to agency owners all the time and explain why the Philippines I think is a good option because in Australia, like not only economically does it make sense, but just think about the numbers. In the Philippines, a lot of people are skilling up in order to provide services to Australian and New Zealand companies. In Australia, we're not skilling up to provide those same services, right? And it's and it's just it's it's a numbers game. It's not just the cost of living over there allows us to have an economic benefit, it's purely the numbers as well. The talent pool, I believe, the talent pool is bigger over there with the kind of skills that we need to support our business operations.

Yeah, absolutely, True. And I think and just following on your point, there's sort of a couple of insights I would share that might be of value. I mean, firstly the idea, you know, that it's often the tendency can be to think in terms of a role rather than just just standing back from your own business and thinking about okay, what are the what are the things that are taking away core staff, senior leaders away from high value tasks, right? So thinking in terms of functions rather than worrying about what the role might look like is a helpful way to do it. So because it's very common, we'll see local businesses grow rapidly because they've they get their senior team together and say, okay, guys, you all know what your core remit is and what's taking you away from that. And for those functions, how do we outsource that? And then you know, companies like us of where we feel we can add some value, we can really consult on that and say, well, based on that, we think that's you know, one, two roles, whatever it might be. But again, because you can get hybrid skill sets within the one resource. That's often another thing people don't realise. You can get someone who's a social media marketing manager as an example, also doing some general office admin. So I think from a, as you say, talking some of the global trends, the idea that that question, are your team spending enough time on the high value tasks, freeing them up, what does that mean? What's the role and effect of that, right? So therefore they've got more time to allocate to high value tasks, strategy, whatever it might be, okay? Um, is just a helpful way to think of it. The other insight I I would share that really I absolutely was enhanced for me at Connect OS beyond my my other roles, um, is the idea that you can really find resources or people that aren't just disciplined, hardworking, turn up on time and follow instructions. There's really good soft skills there, so strong EQ, right? The ability to, like our CSMs, client relationship managers, they have to read between the lines. You've got these conversations around whether it's terms legal or more nuanced conversations, and again, you can get that sort of talent. Because as you say, it's a it's a cornerstone of their economy. So they're really gearing up for that to be an absolute, you know, have been for a long time, you know, key service to offer. So um, yeah, it's evolved a lot, I would say, is two in the last 10 or 15 years.

Now, if you're listening to this and you're thinking uh that you want to grow a team, but you don't want the responsibility of having your own team members or you don't have time to figure that out just yet because you're just inundated and overwhelmed with work that you need to get done. One option may be to just use a white label development partner to get those client projects done. And over time, you might discover that you have more free time to think about growing your own team, in which case using someone like Connect OS might be a good solution. But in the interim, or maybe you just don't want the responsibility of managing your own team and you just want to outsource everything to a white label dev agency, totally fine. In that case, you should definitely talk to Manish and the team at E2M Solutions. They are our uh sponsor here on the podcast. They're also our platinum sponsor for our Mavcon events. There's uh a hundred thousand reasons why they are our sponsor, and I can tell you now, we have been offered sponsorship for years on this podcast from everyone and his dog in the web design space. All the big brands that you would expect have approached us for sponsorship, and we have continually turned it down because I want to be able to talk on this podcast about what is best for you guys and not feel beholden to say something specific because our sponsor is, you know, allowing us to do this and and funding us. Uh the good thing about E2M is I do have complete creative control over this podcast. We can say whatever we want in this podcast, and also uh we just have such a value alignment with the guys at E2M that it made perfect sense to bring them on as a sponsor. Their business model is different to Connect OS. They are a white label development agency that will do all of your care plan work, all of your development work. They'll also do some copywriting and they'll do uh some SEO, they manage the projects in your system, they manage their team. Uh, it's, you know, pretty much a plug-and-play system that allows you to move very quick and get some stuff done without too many headaches. Uh so e2msolutions.com/slash agency dash mavericks is where you should go to check that out and start the conversation with Manish, and they will very kindly give you a discount off your first month to get you on board and get you started. We have many clients using them. Uh, I'm also interacting with them at the moment because I'm helping one of our clients out who is unwell. I have dived in and I'm helping him get some projects over the line, and so I'm actually project managing some projects at the moment and uh working with the guys at E2M to get some projects done. I can tell you the quality of work is outstanding and their communication is excellent. So, E2M solutions for that route. Uh and now we'll get back to talking to Drew at ConnectOS. One of the things I want to uh clarify for people listening is if if I am an agency owner, I come to you guys uh like Josh has, I say, Hey, I need some staff to help me run some SEO campaigns or do some social media management. I'm employing the staff member. Um, I pay, I pay you guys, you guys bill me, I pay you, you guys pay the staff member. Um, but I d I'm managing the staff member myself, right? It's not like I don't I don't call Drew and say, hey Drew, we need this campaign for a client, you go manage the staff. I've got a direct relationship and I'm managing the staff directly, correct?

Correct, yeah. So just to add a few points to that, Troy, so exactly right. We're our responsibility is we're sourcing them, screening them, interviewing them, and then then you have your process interviews and whatever. Then once you're up and running, we're managing all the back ends, all of their payroll, we pay them on your behalf, then you get our invoice, you have a breakdown of that, um, all their IT setup management around that. HR if needed, um, again, that that's on an ass needs basis, but they're exactly right. They're your staff, they report to you, they're part of the team, part of the culture. Just on the legals choice, so we what the way that would work is we would have a service agreement with our clients, and then they're actually employed by us directly. So we have the the employment agreement with the employee, um, and then the service agreement. So again, so you're you're covered in terms of PI and risks and so forth. Um, but that that's how we set that up, which I think is fairly common across the industry.

Do you do you provide any advice to uh people who are looking to hire someone but haven't really been through the recruitment process and don't really understand how to interview and what to look for? Do you have do you provide any c consulting or advice around that?

Certainly on an ad hoc basis, yeah. It's just not it's not a full service we provide per se. We're we're um and again, I don't know that there'd be a lot of it out there, but but certainly I mean our our our process and we we certainly guide you through it. So as part of our onboarding, um the client success manager, the relationship manager, we provide a full onboarding guide um on how to do that, you know, how to there is some common sense around it, meaning you know, spending that the right time up front. Um common sense that might sound occasionally where you know that there can be um clients not getting the full value as they might not spend that initial, especially the first few days, painting the picture. This is who we are as a business, this is our brand, this is our culture, really embedding that even in the first week just sets the tone for the first few months. So we again we provide guides on that. Um so I guess beyond that the training would be more informal in a way, but but guided guidance as needed, Troy.

How do you how do you you know, because there is so much uh you know, and I I guess I'm looking at clients that come to you that are new to this, how do you manage their expectations? Because that one of the things I've found in the past is that people hire a remote staff member and they expect a unicorn. They expect someone who can do everything. And I've certainly made that mistake in the past when I was starting out as well because it was just a bit naive and a bit of inexperience. How do you manage those expectations to clients and kind of set their expectations and say, well, this is probably three roles, not one?

Yeah. It's a great question, Troy, because and it touches on the point I made earlier. We really we are fully cognizant of the fact that as I mentioned earlier we we have to deal with this perception of the industry. And beyond that, it is absolutely a space where we we need to be nimble, right? So so how how do we we try and reassure that? We are very, very strong in our process. And what do they mean by that? Like if we're not talking about IT, we're ISO 27 that does one compliant, that that that gives people some reassurance. But also in those initial stages really providing a lot of as requested to but documentation. So they can see from the from the go get, you know, we're not a backyar we've got this is an overview of who we are this is our IT policy and how that works. We provide a copy of our terms up front you know once they have the discovery that you can review before we get to formal teas and season signing off so you can review that. And that's quite involved but just being as transparent as we can on this is what the process looks like. We provide guides I mentioned onboarding invoicing and other things because um because you're absolutely right it it can be a leap of faith for a lot of people that are new to it. It's a new space um legal and so forth so as much as we can we we try to you know offset that with providing the detail um to your other point on you know wanting the unicorn and occasionally you know we we we we have when I say occasionally where we need to push back we have done but most of the time the expectations are pretty pretty solid on what you can get versus what they're what might be needed. But marketing is a good example where we've had requests for what I would call very senior strategic marketing roles that need an understanding of the local market. Now the Philippines very different market to Australia for obvious reasons. So for some of those we would actually push back and say well no some of that I guess more senior skill set that should probably remain locally or or that's not what we would provide. What we can provide is I guess the the mid tier experience you know being us managing the day to day providing content you know managing SEO and so forth which which doesn't lead need local knowledge in the market.

And I guess for those this is this is a this this is probably this is I think this is where the clients that we work with, I think this is exactly where they get stuck, right? Is they and I've we've got a lot of clients now who kind of have this um the strategist implementer division right so they have they have strategists locally who are working with the clients to come up with solutions, design strategies. They understand the local market they understand the the local environment they've got their finger on the pulse in terms of what's happening with competition um the local landscape any compliance or new legislation that's happening and then they design the strategy and then the implementers will will run the day to day and keep everything keep everything running and will obviously give feedback to the strategist but I think and and that's been a very successful model for a lot of our clients but I think some clients expect well why can't I hire a strategist in the Philippines to get on the phone with the client and design the whole solution I I I I know why that's problematic but I wonder if you can just talk to that for a minute so that people can hear it from someone who's got that experience firsthand.

No look at you said and especially in the startup space right if you're wanting to grow and I I I've I've again I was general manager of a startup and and managing an admin team. So it's there is some nuance to it Troy I think because again you can get very senior really smart commercially smart you know nimble people in the Philippines and I've seen them in ops roles and managing them directly they're fantastic. I would almost you could approach use that functional approach but just thinking about what what's your core IP in your business right what's your um and I I guess I'm thinking about it in terms of what's realistic to outsource but what where are you taking too much of a risk especially to a startup on outsourcing strategy or IP some of those really high-end functions where um the marketing's the best example where you need um you know you need not certain local knowledge you ain't necessarily going to get in the Philippines. I think on the on the financial side again I I this has probably very rarely come up but if it's you know there's a difference between sure even being a senior senior accountant or managing senior tasks versus you know cash flow planning your business or some of those really important critic risk management aspects that I personally would would wouldn't be comfortable outsourcing beyond a point because it's a critical function that that needs some of that nuance. There's maybe an argument on the financial side if someone's good enough they could still do that. But um the the way I I would look at it is I guess starting with the outcomes think okay you want to grow you want senior people focusing on high value tasks and I guess drawing the line on what what relates to your specific IP um you know financially where is it really a a commercial decision maker for a business owner come partner versus offshore that that could be one way to approach it. Hope I've answered your question Troy because it's a great question and it's not a I don't think it's necessarily a straight click on answer to it.

No it's not and I I think I think some people just have to learn the hard way they try and yeah they try and outsource tasks that will you know bite them in the bum because they haven't heeded the warning and I think and and certainly I've I've had my expectations have had to be reset and managed over the years and not just with remote staff but with local staff as well. So if I'm an agency owner what kind of talent should I be looking to recruit in the Philippines whether it's through you guys or someone else what what can I expect that I can outsource and and get uh get a remote team member to help me with what are the typical roles that you're looking at recruiting for yeah yeah great question so like a we're we're gonna get to it probably starting with the um the most common would be administration sorry and that that's and I often talk about administration um role Troy that there's almost three tiers to a good way to look at it because it it is the most common and what's also the most common is a hybrid.

So I mentioned earlier you can have you know someone is a marketing manager hybrid with an admin bookkeeper, hybrid admin and that that's a very common um but within admin for example the three tiers could be the lower level data entry like really basic data entry entering fields in an application a mid tier might be more what we typically hire general admin task back office administration process and so forth. And then I'd describe a senior as someone who you know we've seen examples of admin staff coordinating rostering for staff um field reps in the field and they're they're coordinating and resource managing around that so they're quite you know project managing effective that that'll be the senior level but but that'll be the the first and most common um admin um accounting bookkeeping is another broad bucket so so you know basic bookkeeping up to you know literally log into the in our case the ATO portal to to lodge statements and so forth.

IT would be another large bucket again in the in the startup space um that there can be you know basic back end IT and then you know more established businesses anything from uh devs you know front end back end devs full stack you know some of those that um and you do certainly see spikes depending on where the market's at for industry needs um you know I've mentioned social media marketing manage will be another another bucket um that that again we've seen quite a quite a trend in that the last six months actually it's there seems to be a lot of the need for that and beyond that Troy I guess they get these more you know niche technical roles so drafting you know and construction engineering could be one example estimators could be another and then they're there sort of within that broad sort of um ad hoc technical or let's call it um you get these different niches within that and for just in in marketing what roles apart from strategy what roles should I uh what roles would you say well well that's probably not something like so the two and and I'm more than happy for you to challenge me on this my experience would say the two roles I've found very difficult to hire for specifically in the Philippines are design and copywriting. Should I be should I be should I not bother trying to do that or or have I missed something over the years and and not found the right talent?

I'll I'll start with the copyright because it's interesting you say that we've actually sourced some of those roles um lately and and and done it very well for for content based organisations. So so look we've absolutely seen that I haven't seen a an avalanche of it it's a bit of a niche role but I've certainly we've done it successfully um I think common sense around that Troy you'd certainly you know you you'd be paying well for what the market offers you've got to do the right things to get the right candidates so I think those those you you can get um on the the design thing I think that's that to me it would depend but I would say some of it could potentially relate to my comments on the senior marketing if it's design where again the the Philippines and thus a lot the Asian region very different market and and taste vary. We've seen graphic design roles absolutely I mean graphic design is is it you know it's a niche role but if we see it quite quite regularly let's put it that way um but I would say if you're looking for a strategist on design to sort of set the design set the strategy and then design based on that maybe that's something you might be just careful about but certainly basic graphic design roles we see a lot of that yeah yeah well I've actually said I've actually had seen some great video editors come out of the Philippines as well which is not something that I expected.

And but I will say that they are harder to find than a web developer or a full stack software developer or an admin assistant. I agree. And I don't know why but uh the the creative roles I think are harder to find. I think the talent pool might be uh smaller there and also I I think you're right that the aesthetic and the taste and the market in right across Asia is actually quite different to what I've experienced in Australia. And you just go to Asia and you have a look at the the graphic design and the billboards and the pamphlets and the brochures and you can see that it's a completely different kind of uh uh aesthetic and so I think creative talent in the Philippines that are serving Australian or New Zealand companies the ones that I've seen work really well are ones that have studied what's going on in the Australian New Zealand market and have had a look at what other companies are are producing and have adapted their style accordingly.

Yeah yeah and I think they're just on that Troy that it's it's again common sense but if you you know you you put some fairly tight parameters on that so exactly if you are you know take what I said earlier that then yeah you want to use a bit of common sense on on some of that senior senior experience but if you say okay well I want someone who has that Australian experience as you say on a fairly niche it is a niche role um you you can find them.

Apart from uh design agencies and marketing agencies who's the typical client that comes to you guys it's we we have it it it is quite broad.

I mean I'd you know the I mean we we we have a broad cross-section I mean yes certainly within finance and accounting you do see a a mix of sort of SMEs to mid-tiers I guess but um you know I'd almost the way I describe rather than using industries for example you see quite a lot of start startups you know lean um let's say less than five year startups see a lot of even under 10 years where they're really sharp but they're still technically a startup and they're they're looking at um I guess some of these more generalist roles so you know in marketing and doing a little bit of SEO a bit of digital marketing had one of those this morning actually where you know a little bit of admin so that that's a very common um bucket but then you know we're also given the I guess where the business is heading we're having a lot of larger clients that that will literally say to us we need a lot of stuff um in let's say an administration type role in a short short time frame so we're um as a business I guess we're we've stretched to that as well where there might be some capability presentations initially and stakeholders and so forth and then in in the mid-tier I typically I must say dealing with a lot of startups in sort of mid-tiers Troy at the moment it's just that that's the way it's sort of panned out um which is great but I guess it's just a different type of conversation where as I say more generalist I guess for those those smaller entities understandably and then they they grow and the other point I make on this is a good insight to share actually that um especially if you're looking at growing at a team you know spending the time on thinking about what those one or two initial roles look like is a really important point because often they become initially what could be an ops role in the trenches for a future team lead of you know four or five staff. So firstly getting those one or two roles right initial roles is absolutely critical but also understanding that that's probably going to evolve into a you know a gun ops tech whatever it might be into it into a team lead so that adds another layer of you know and we we feel we can absolutely help with that but something to bear in mind just thinking about you know that 50% of you like yeah and across all the industries that you serve and the 1200 odd staff that you've got what have you seen um work uh uh uh with those that have been successful versus those that uh have had a team member that hasn't worked out for whatever reason what are the traits of those that are doing it really well what are the sort of the common characteristics that they're displaying yeah I I think firstly I mean I don't I'll use the word common sense again but anyway so and spending the time up front so especially in that first week you know painting a picture of this is who we are as a business this is our culture because that that's what you're doing you're bringing them in on the journey and I think I would add to that true it's not that it's with the the absence of this means you're not being successful but companies that I guess seem to have a natural um they appreciate that we look after our people right so I was going to say HR but it's not a HR focus it's just if you're really sort of people um focused in what you do and looking after your people that's our our model does seem to resonate and it just sets the tone right that if you think about the overall experience for the for the employee in the Philippines they're coming into a company at our end they're in a nice environment if they're working in the office there's a lot of the things we're doing on that end client they're working for again is setting the tone they're very focused on staff wellbeing building that relationship and just setting that tone especially in the first few weeks uh often say that doing that they become I guess much more independent in the context of the business they're working for if you spend that time up front. I'm sure this is common sense stuff for a lot of your listeners but um just setting that tone early I think is a bit of a bit of a no-brainer.

It is common sense but it's not well I would say it's common sense but it's not common practice indeed you're right you're absolutely right that's why I shouldn't qualify that too heavily because you do see the uh I was saying it really but if there's a this sort of second to get then a few weeks in there's a bit of a misperception we do our best to communicate that but yeah there can be that expectation that I think the other thing the other thing I think that's worth noting is like team new new team members generally you know by and large they don't want to be a nuisance they want to fit in they want to be useful they want to be helpful they they a lot of people don't feel comfortable asking a lot of questions in the first you know 14 to 30 days that they're employed. They want to try and figure things out themselves and kind of you know be competent add to that the the culture of the Philippines is I think what I've learnt over the years is that you have to be overtly explicit in making it okay for people to ask lots of questions and let them know that that is the right thing to do because their culture is that they they they just they won't be as forthcoming. As I said any new team member regardless of where they live will want to figure things out themselves and and and make an impact and make an impression but particularly in the Philippine culture they're very proud they do you know they do they don't want to be seen as uh as not competent or not be able to do the job and so you you I think you really need to lean into people and let them know it's totally okay to ask lots of questions. We'd rather you ask lots of questions up front and get clarity than than go off and do the wrong thing. How what what I'm curious obviously you don't train the staff how to do the job they've been hired for but what do you do how do you keep the staff that work in the facility in the in the office there how what do you do to maintain that culture and to kind of you know um nurture them as good employees and good team members.

Yeah great great couple of questions and I'm glad you raised the point on the the cultural differences it it's a very valid point and as you say that that they they tend to be more um what's the word it's not laser you know more um not not subservient is but it's it's like not as um they might be quieter when they should maybe raise something is that perception right or I I put that is still a it's a very important point to know I think it's actually softened a bit in the last say 10 years. And the reason I say that it's still there and something to acknowledge but um I just think they this is my perception but they it's it's such a big market over there and I think the understanding of the differences and nuances with Australian culture versus the Philippines um I think is improved where you you do the the the gap is I think compared to when I was doing it in 2010 um it it's you know the lines are are a bit bit less less uh clear if that makes sense or it's getting closer. How do we do that and create that culture? So you know I I touched on this but you know we we we do have this this very strong HR driven focus in our business. So I mentioned you know the office and you know monthly monthly team building events and so forth. It's worth mentioning the Christmas event um Troy because you you probably know but in the Philippines the Christmas party is a very very different thing to what it is um in Australia in that um it is absolutely a culture building exercise right so in Australia we we organize an event and organise drinks and whatever but over there um to give it an idea we have I think we we're potentially looking close to a thousand people at our our Christmas event this year and it's it's really about the team it's not about the management clients off we encourage clients to come they're not obliged to um but it's a it's a big night it's it's a you know um we have performers and so forth and the staff win prizes but but it just it it really is as a as a as a business and as a team the staff love that so we put a lot of energy time money and resource into that um beyond that I I think I've lost my train of thought there was something else I was going to say and I've lost my train of thought but you know the the the monthly things are are really important and hopefully that's it cements that um you know I mean it's this is a little thing but doing the the staff benefits so having an employee um uh you know benefits program having the the the healthcare and some of those things too and that should be standard unfortunately it's not in our space some of the why is don't don't include healthcare which is a big deal over there of course so I think all those pieces do do do add up.

You know we we do we do actively encourage clients if they ever want to visit the Philippines again they don't have to but if they do because again building that relationship with your staff so we can arrange pick up at the airport accommodation vice versa some staff have visited Australian businesses to build that relationship so again I just need to emphasize there's not an expectation to do it but just those little things can help you know yeah incredibly beneficial I I it got it changed the game for us when I went to Manila and met our staff is there much is there much interaction with this team members that work for different companies but they work in the same office do they form friendships and they have that kind of sense of camaraderie in that office space?

Absolutely so I mean do you have an idea that the team in the office they they they'd be sitting next to each other and there is a team so they they learn by osmosis um that there's a lot of those things so again the these you know I call them team building activities so they are grouped together based based on industry so again there's a lot of you know um you know we allocate significant re resource to that so there's there's a there's a big you know the the CSMs our our relationship managers have their own sort of events as well and um you know what we've put a lot of you know with that like I guess on the back end resourcing of that so you know getting transparency on on where the business is at where there's a need to Troy so you know we've recently had a major upgrade in our our systems um HRS system and and what that basically gives us is more visibility over where where there's a need, right? So where the where do we need more more staff or resources and so forth. And that's sort of slightly on a tangent but it again relates back to staff feeling supported right in what they're doing both in a work sense and and having these turn building activities.

So because I get you know one of the other things is if you're living in Australia or New Zealand you've got staff in the Philippines and they're overwhelmed or you they've just got too much work they won't be the first to put their hand up and say hey I you know I need some help how do you how do you manage that and how do you become aware of that and then do you go back to clients and say hey you you need to hire some more people yeah well you probably the initial stages I mean I I tend to find because our process typically is look often I'm having the initial conversation or might be an equivalent my equivalent if you like um and then we get into the process right so we we go through and sourcing and so forth and then it's really the the the CSM relationship managers managing the data today on there as needed.

So where Troy I I tend to watch really closely is in that first three months right um we're dealing with people so occasionally there can be misalignment that happens in any business in the world that that is involving in the sourcing of people so we've got to watch that very very carefully both from an expectations point of view or occasionally if there is misalignment we have to you know be on the front foot if you like in managing that. Beyond that I I it's interesting I I don't tend to find we'd we are dealing with anyway uh situations where staff's been there for let's say six or twelve months And we're having reports from their team that they're absolutely inundated. And, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't tend to happen that way for us. You know, we absolutely notice where there's a workload, they'll come to us, we need more staff because it's growing. We see that a lot. But it but it isn't something we've we've had to had to deal with. I like to think, again, you know, the employee benefits and and we very strong HR focus internally. We watch that pretty closely, actually. Um so employee well-being is something we we monitor very, very, very carefully. Um but as I say, touch wood at hasn't been something we we've had to, you know, the scenario you think where it's where it's major better after 12 months and we've got to fill that gap. It's which watch pretty close. And it's a fair to clients are pretty good like that. I think that they they once they understand the model and the roles tend to grow over time, especially the admin's a good example where they start with a a core focus and then over time they realize, okay, great, we can also delegate, you know. But it seems most clients don't understand the um parameters of that.

Yeah. What are you most excited about in this space over the you know, now that we're out of COVID, we've kind of come back to, you know, some kind of new version of normal. It's still a very much a remote workforce. Half the buildings here in Melbourne are empty. I'd imagine commercial real estate in the city is going to become pretty cheap over the next five years as people have just refusing to go back to the office. What are you most excited about over the coming years?

Great question. I think look, I I guess I'll approach it from two points of view. One's, I guess, from a Philippines based, and maybe from an Australian-centric point of view. I think, you know, we we we like we are building really good relationships with our clients, and it's it is gratifying when you come back and you get that feedback, they're really happy with the process and all the pieces are doing really well. Um so absolutely, I'm excited in terms of some of these relationships we've developed, especially the last 12, 18 months post-COVID, um, where typically we we build that trust, and then great. Now when you do, you know, really, really expand out. That that of course that excites me, that that's you know, business development, and it's exciting for any business to see that. And as I say, Troy, we really are working very hard behind the scenes to manage that growth. You know, quality can be suffer when you have that sort of back-end resourcing and and really us, you know, not being complacent as that grows. Look, I think from an Australian point of view, I'm a I'm a mad, very patriotic Australian. And my my view on this is that more and more Australian businesses need to, you know, look at this as an option because, as I say, we we very commonly see businesses grow locally. So when you you do wee up your senior people or high value resources to do the things they're good at and focus on the high vehicles, business tends to grow anyway, right? So I think from an Australian point of view, it's actually a really positive thing. They tend to grow locally, it creates more jobs because of these sorts of initiatives. So I'm a huge believer in that. Yeah.

Awesome. Drew, it's been great having you on the Agency Our Podcast. Where can people reach out and say thanks and get in touch and explore the possibility of working with you guys?

Yep, thank you. So yeah, Connect OS. So you'll you'll see it's just Google Connect OS one word on our site. You can um they can obviously reach out to me direct. It's basically my name, or I can shoot about the details. But um, and yeah, happy to have a conversation if people are already exploring that quite often. We have a chat, it's not necessarily there's a need now, but I'm happy to happy to have that conversation if people want to learn more.

Thanks for watching. And we'll put links in the show notes, of course, underneath this episode. So uh check out connect os.co. We have clients who uh clients of ConnectOS, we share clients, so uh we uh think that it's a good idea that you have a chat with them if you want to go down that path and know that as I said, we have mastermind clients who are in this space and are using Connect OS and having a lot of success. So they come highly recommended. Thanks for spending some time with us. I'm glad we connected, I look forward to keeping the conversation going.

Thanks, Troy. Thanks for the invitation, appreciate it.

Thanks for listening to the Agency Hour podcast and a massive thanks to Drew for joining us. I really enjoyed chatting with him, and I could chat for hours with him about growing teams, maintaining and nurturing a strong culture, and all that good stuff. Okay, folks, please don't forget to subscribe and please share this with anyone who you think may need to hear it. I'm Troy Dean, and remember, dragonflies have six legs but can't walk.