When you're the leader of the company, vision is one of the most important things. If you don't have a vision that's greater, then the leading and lagging indicators like something that's bigger than that, some kind of mission, some kind of purpose that the team are behind. Leading with that vision is the the big drop.

Welcome to the Identical Podcast, where we help with design and digital Identical that's great abundance for themselves, detained in their communities. This week we're joined by the one and only Tom and Kelly, CEO and head of growth at seriously good design. Some of my go way back, and this episode is Jamaican powerful strategies straight from the memory of training. Also, explore how your existing clients hold unchap revenue and the steps you can take to lock at class. Breakdown how focusing on the right indicators can lead to predictable, sustainable growth. Also, somehow, what you federal fits into all of these. I'm Troy D. Stay with us. Hey, welcome back.

I've been on here once or twice, but I think we've we've hung out a couple of clubs, haven't we?

We have, mate. I'm my mind is cast back to the good old days of silence as golden back in uh the studio when we had less idea than we have now. And not saying that we have any idea now, but back then we really didn't know what we were doing. For those that don't have a clue who you are or what we're talking about, it's who are you and what are you doing here?

What am I doing here? It's a great question. I think I might reflect that one on you. But I'm Simon Gelly. I'm the CEO and uh head of growth at SGD, which is seriously good design. We're a Melbourne-based web design SEO Google Ads agency. We help tech and transport companies to turn their website into lead generating machines. And I'm here to talk to you.

Yeah, go on. Why why tech and transport companies? What's with the transport?

Yeah, like transportation, logistics, like we just get great results for them.

Wow.

Yeah, we can really help them win. Yeah.

Was that intentional that you chose that, or did that just happen organically over the years?

Uh it's yeah, a bit of both. It was uh we're very bored, very generalist agency. We're like, well, let's just look back at the ones we have an affinity with that we crush it results-wise and we love working with. And um tech companies, because in some way we are one, like NSPs, cybersecurity companies, even manufacturing companies that are doing things with tech like 3D printing. Uh on the tech side of things, but then on the transport side of things, it's just yeah, we can just massively help them win. They typically have to be a really good business, like operations-wise, in uh because they're not very good at their marketing, then typically don't have a very good website, they're not really doing much digital, so they've got to have a great business because they're not relying on the marketing to support them. So we can help them just yeah, take things to the next level. Yeah, yeah, big time.

Um now, interesting sidebar for me is James Fulton, who was the uh owner of Seriously Good Design before you came in, he was one of the f very first back in the day, one of the very first platinum coaching clients I had at WP Elevation. This is 150 years ago, when we used to build websites in Dreamweaver, and he did so well with uh Seriously Good Design that he went and lived in Poland for a bit and was living the dream, and then you guys connected, and then you were both kind of doing something similar, and then decided to because you had renegade empire, and then you were a coach at Mavericks Club, we did the silence is golden thing together. I feel like I've known you for a hundred years, and it's awesome to see you guys partner up and Ray Milledoni, who was the marketing manager for WP Elevation for a bit, um until I got in his way so much he couldn't do his job, and uh then he's also working with you guys as well. So it's like I feel like it's this really, you know, I it's it's very rewarding for me to see you three guys working together and having a lot of success.

Yeah, thanks. It's it's awesome, but like we know each other through WP Elevation and through you. So yeah, massive thanks to you. It's so great for us to be able to speak in the same language when we're working together because we've all been through your training and we've all spent tons of time with you. So yeah, it is uh it's interesting. During during COVID, uh us three amigo spent a lot of time together separate, like we had separate agencies, but we're like, oh, let's just you know collaborate, connect, and like work out problems together. Um, and now we're all working together as business partners. It's it's epic. Awesome. Great.

Um, and so what then what what are you doing here on the agency hour podcast?

That's a that's a great question. We're gonna unpack some useful concepts, principles to teach agency owners and business owners digital marketing strategies, but but more than that, we're it's coming from a practical sense. It's coming from applying these things. So we're gonna be we're gonna be sharing things that have worked in our business that the battle tests that we've tried them in in Mavericks Club and in Recurring Revenue Accelerator, which are the programs from agency Mavericks. There's tons of fantastic, super smart agency owners in there who are applying this stuff as well. So we're taking some of those learnings and and sharing them so the audience can can benefit.

Love it. And the we had I had a guest reach out to me recently wanting to be on a podcast, and I had to politely decline because I said, look, our podcast strategy's changed this year. Our podcast strategy up until recently has been we just bring in all these guests, they you know add value, but they're always sprooking their stuff, right? They're pitching their software or their program or their book or whatever. So we've dialed that back. We do have some guests coming up. I can confirm that Dr. Sherry Walling, who's one of my favorite humans on the planet, she's written a new book and she is going to be on the podcast. I think Johnny Flash is hosting that one. So we still do have a few guests, but we what we wanted to do really was peel the curtain back and actually share more of our own intellectual property and our own frameworks as to what's working in agencies. And because you've been a coach at Mavericks Club and now you're an agency applying the stuff that you've learned. We thought it was you know a perfect fit for you to come back and co-host it with me. Um, and I'm just gonna see if I can do what I used to do in Silences Golden, which is completely derail the conversation and just be a nuisance. No way, I've grown up a little bit, I promise.

A little bit, a little bit. Yeah, yeah, me too. I'm not planning the episode within an nth of its life like I did with Silence is Golden. Being like, all right, here's the plan. You're like, love this plan. Yeah, throw that out the window, and then like, let's go live, and then like and Facebook is not allowing us to go live.

Like, oh mate, what a shit show. Everyone is a plan until they try to go live on Facebook. Yeah, correct. And so today, specifically today, we are talking about the difference between leading indicators and lagging indicators. Is that right?

Yeah, that's right. So this this is something that came up on the um the Mavericks Club Velocity coaching call that you hosted. I think it was last week, actually, not this week. And it's this it came from someone who one of the agency owners saying that they were booked out like months in advance. And a couple of weeks before, maybe maybe a month or so before, that was not the case. They were not saying that. So there was some kind of like transformation, like what happened? Like, it's great. Like we have at the in Mavericks Club, we've got the ring the bell channel. It's great to hear the success stories, like, oh, like you know, close another growth plan client and everyone's celebrating. But I I typically ask, well, like what happened before that? Like, what what did you do in order to make that happen? Or what changed, or what did you learn? So when when this agency owner mentioned that, you jumped in and you said, like, awesome, first of all, like let's make that a case study. Obviously, it's everything you learnt from Troy Dean and Agency Mavericks. Uh, but but what were the the leading indicators that led up to that lagging indicator of being booked out, extra revenue, lots of growth?

What do you how what do you understand as the difference? Like define for the audience, define a leading indicator and a lagging indicator.

Yeah, so I'll start the other way around. So lagging indicators are results. So like we're booked out months in advance. Uh I've got a super fit body and I feel amazing. Six pack abs. Like that's lagging indicators. Leading indicators. So they're results, they're outcomes. And leading indicators are actions or activity that's happening to produce those outcomes. So if we're thinking about six pack abs, it'd be you'd be tracking not do I have six pack abs, yes or no, but you'd be tracking how often am I going to the gym and doing core workouts. Am I sticking to my diet plan? Like they're leading indicators, because those leading indicators, activities that have to happen again and again and again to get the lagging indicator.

And the leading, you know, from a semantic point of view, the leading indicators are the things that lead to the outcome. The lagging indicators, I think they're called lagging because they kind of happen after. They're they're the result of the activity, right? And so one of the we have an embargo within our programs, you're not allowed to use the word leads, you're not allowed to turn up on a call and say, I need leads. Because one, it's very easy to get leads. I can go to D7 lead finder and get you 25 leads for free right now. And then I go, great, what are you gonna do with those leads? And most people say, I haven't got a clue, I'm not gonna cold call them. Well, I'm like, well, what do you need leads for? And so what we do is we reframe that because leads in a in a in a sales pipeline are a lagging indicator. Like so so let's just break this down and keep it really simple, right? If you want leads, I can I have to go to somewhere, D7 Lead Finder or LinkedIn Sales Navigator or Google and do some scraping. I have to I have to do something to get the lead, right? To get a name and an email and a phone number. And now I have 25 leads. I can't just click my fingers and go, where's the leads button on my keyboard? There isn't one. I have to do something to get the leads. The leads are a lagging indicator because I've done some work, I've put in some effort, the result is I now have some leads. By the way, that probably won't be very good leads if they've just scraped them, but that's a whole lot of the conversation. This is why I think the weight loss and the goal setting industry is like worth billions of dollars a year and always will be because it keeps people focused on the wrong thing, which is the lagging indicator. The weight loss industry keeps people focused on their target weight. Right? The goal setting industry keeps people focused on their goals. The secret, the book was a great example, right? And you just like close your eyes and manifest checks in the mail. The big piece of that book that was missing is there's all this work that you have to do, all these things that you actually have to do, and sure, manifesting and great mindset and abundance and all that kind of stuff helps, but there's all these things you have to do in order to achieve the outcome that you want. And the lagging indicator is the outcome. So when you get on the scales in the morning and you look down and you go, You fat bastard, how come you're still at you're not at your target weight? You go, Well, because yesterday I drank three beers and ate pizza for dinner. Right? And and so the the the weight that you are is an accurate result of how you've been treating your body. Right? And so and so the uh the problem with focusing on and revenue is another lagging indicator, the problem with focusing on the lagging indicator is there'll always be a gap between the current lagging indicator and your desired lagging indicator. So revenue, there's a gap between your current revenue and where you want it to be. There's a gap between your current weight and where you want it to be, or your current bicep and where you want it to be, or your whatever, your car and the car you want to drive. There's always a gap between what you have and what you want. And if you focus on that, I believe what you know Dan Kennedy says, you focus on the gap instead of the gain, what happens is you just end up attracting more of the gap into your life. So you end up being a little bit disgruntled, a bit resentful, a bit pissed off that you haven't got what you want. Whereas if you focus on the gain, well, I didn't have a car and now I drive a nice car. How did that happen? Because I did this work that got me into a position where I could afford a car. What happens is you just attract more of that gain into your life because you're focusing on the things that you've done that have produced the lagging indicator. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Rep revenue, the bank balance, like these are these are things like I I don't know, uh the audience could tell us, and maybe you do the same thing, but checking the bank account is something that I I do daily, but like that's not the thing to check. It's kind of ridiculous to be checking out be like, oh, I wonder if you know some money has come in. It's like, well, like what about the sales calls? Like, are you focusing on those? Like, I made it, I made a change and a commitment this year. Um, and it like it, you can like it's kind of written on the window back there. But rather like we had not an like at the agency, we didn't have an amazing um December. And we were kind of freaking out a little bit, and it's like the first time uh for since I've come on board that the um that things went down. I was like, yeah, freak it out. So we made a plan, a commitment, and part of that was my commitment as head of growth to do four um five four, I can't even get it right right now, five follow-ups per day. Because we had a pipeline, there's plenty in the pipeline, we weren't quite getting enough leads. I didn't quite need to go down the D7 path, but I was like, we have 180 clients. Like, there's like go go mining for gold. Like, there's what is um uh there's money, there's always money in the banana stand. As Adam Silverman would say. That's right. There's money in the banana stand. So like that became the the leading indicator. And we had our best month ever last month. There you go. There you go. And like we also did a ton of SEO work last year and it's paid off in dividends now, and it's like, oh my god, like you go from this roller coaster of emotions, but it's it's when you're focused, I think, you focus too much on the lagging indicator, on the bank balance, on the revenue, and you're not focused on it. It's quite comforting, I think, focusing on the leading indicators because you know you're taking the actions. It's like I know I did five follow-ups and I finished the day being like, hell yeah, did that. Look at my bank account, exactly the same. Okay, that's fine. But I know I'm investing, I'm investing in my future. I'm not just checking the result and being like, Well, not today. It's like, what do you mean? It's ridiculous.

Yeah. And the times where I've wanted to throw the towel in and you know, I feel like the walls are caving in, is where the numbers aren't where they need to be. And I'm l and I've I've done this before. I ring my wife, who you know really well. Thankfully, she's a psychologist, she talks me off the ledge. I'll ring her and I'll say, I'm doing that thing where I'm sitting here looking at the computer, wondering why the numbers aren't where they need to be, and I feel completely powerless. I feel like I have no control over these numbers. And her advice is always the same. What's what's one thing that you can do that will make you feel like you've done something? Checking the bank balances is not I haven't done anything, I've just checked the bank balance, right? It's like self-flagellation, isn't it? It's like, yes, I'm in a really bad mood. Let's check the bank balance, which isn't where I want it to be, and then let's get on the scales just for fun, right?

You know what else is broken? This and this. You know what that's like the downward spiral begins correctly. Why does it even matter? Yeah, yeah. Self-destruction.

Yeah, beer with lunch and it's all over. And and and so if you just do like five follow-ups a day, you just do like you just reach out to a client, right? And at least you feel like you've done something towards moving the needle. And there's this weird kind of thing that's really hard to quantify, which is energy in, energy out. Right. If you put energy into those activities, the universe just rewards you. And you know, what's the other saying? Uh money goes where the money flows where the focus goes, right? And so if you if you focus on the follow-up, if you just do your five follow-ups a day, money is just energy. Like money will the universe will reward you. It's really hard to codify this, it's really hard to put this into a three-step checklist, but it happens all I I see it happen all the time.

I think it's where, like, in addition to that, like, where is this coming from? Like, is it coming from a place of scarcity and I need this sale? Or is it coming from a place of like service where like I I'm gonna do five follow-ups because I know we do amazing work and I want to help these clients. And it's coming from that space. So I'm like, hell yeah, I'm gonna follow up, as opposed to like, I really need this money, I'm kind of freaking out right now. Oh, and the follow-up becomes desperate, and that energy, like again, like hard to hard to quantify, but I think it shows up in results. If you're bringing that energy to your sales calls, if you're bringing that to the follow-up process, it's just it can be um, it can be detected a mile away. It's no good. It's just a mindset shift. It's the same activity, but you can convince yourself that you're coming from a place of desperation, or you can convince yourself that you do great work and you're here to help them. They're both true at the same time. Choose the one that serves you better. Yeah, different intention. Totally. It's like, who are you being when you're doing this activity? Like, what where's this coming from? Kind of thing, which I think is is super powerful.

This whole leading versus lagging is a problem with client relationships as well, because typically clients want the lagging indicator, they don't but they're not aware of the work that needs to go in to produce it, right? So the obvious example is, well, we launched a great new website, how come we're not on page one of Google? Being on page one of Google is a lagging indicator, right? You can't just manifest it. There's a whole bunch of work you need to do to get there. So I don't know, how do you manage clients' expectations when they're chasing the lagging indicator and you know that there's a whole bunch of work that needs to happen to get there?

Exactly. Like typically it's asking questions. Okay, cool. So you're not ranking on page one. So when was the last time? Like it depends on what stage of the relationship, I suppose, but I would ask something along the lines of like, when was the last time you published a piece of content to improve your rankings? And we're like, oh, oh, well, we haven't at all. Okay, cool. So so what what kind of um activity do you expect from taking zero action? And that creates that gap in their mind that they they can see what they're focusing on and what they should be focusing on. So asking questions helps a lot in that way.

Yep. And um I had a conversation with an agency um the other day who you know, very successful seven-figure agency here talking about the team, and you know, different, a whole different ball game to where uh he was when he started with us, that the team are just doing all the things now and he's working two or three hours a day. Because also a lot of the time, you know, it's not a it's not a straight line, is it? Like we put this effort in, we do the leading indicators, but sometimes the lagging indicators don't manifest. Like it's not it's not that predictable. So how do you keep the team focused and motivated when they're doing the leading indicators, but it's not resulting? When you're doing the five follow-ups, you're doing the sales calls, and for whatever reason, the numbers just aren't making sense. How do you keep, I mean, this is a um maybe I'm answering this question as I'm asking it, but how do you keep your mindset positive and motivated and abundant when things are just not going the way they should be?

Yeah, that's uh yeah, there's a couple of couple of parts to that. I think when you're the the leader of the company, vision is one of the most important things. And if you're not if you don't have a vision that's greater than the leading and lagging indicators, like something that's bigger than that, some kind of mission, some kind of purpose that the team are behind and these little projects, these activities and the the ways you're measuring them are like little missions, little games you're playing on the way to this bigger picture. I think I think leading with that vision is the the big rock in this in this question. Um, but getting a bit more tactical and and practical here, if we've identified as leaders of the company that revenue is something we want to increase, which is what we want to do all the time. So we don't typically pass that down to the team because I don't really want them, they may not have control over that outcome. Like if they can't influence the score, then I'm not gonna put that on the scoreboard. But what I will put on the scoreboard is something that, as again, as leadership, that we've identified is very likely, and this is like strategic thinking, is very likely to impact that. So earlier this year, with our our um kind of lower month in December, we were like, right, what contributes the most to revenue? What didn't we do? What are we missing out on before? Let's repeat what worked in the past. We're fantastic at building websites, our team have capacity, we just haven't been selling them. We've been selling SEO, care plans, and smaller recurring items that don't give us the big revenue and cash jump that we we we wanted. So we're like, great, we're gonna do four website sales and four website launches per month. That's our mission. We haven't been doing that. Let's do more of that, and then I get the team focused on that. Explain why that's important, um, how that's gonna improve our process, how that's gonna be able to uh get us to fill in gaps with the team because of the revenue that's gonna generate. But I don't focus too much on the lagging indicator there because it is revenue and they may not be able to influence that. They can't be like, cool, I made 10 units of revenue today. Like they they can't do anything there. They could produce websites and ship them within the constraints. So I give them a game and a scoreboard to look at and lead with the vision.

And sometimes the school board can be numbers that aren't revenue related, right? It can be like number of new like we have a uh we have a target of new agencies that we want to onboard each month, which tr does result in revenue, but our vision, like the whole reason we exist is to help agencies succeed. And so if we're not onboarding new agencies every month, then we're not fulfilling our vision, right? We're not we're not helping the agencies succeed. And so that's the vision, and they're the numbers, but they're not revenue numbers, they're kind of they're new client numbers or their unit numbers. So what are some of the numbers that the team can get excited about that aren't revenue?

So we've got a mission at the moment, 10 case studies by the end of the month. So that's a that's a number. We've got a time frame, and that's something that will contribute to our revenue and contribute to our sales process. And it's also explaining why to the team is like because we do fantastic work and we want to share it.

And the thing is, you can't get case studies unless you're working with clients. And the fact that you're working with clients, working with existing clients or new clients doing good work and getting case studies, all of that's gonna result in more revenue because you know, like you can't get testimonials unless you're working with clients, and if you're working with clients, they're paying you. Yeah, and if you're not doing good work, you're not gonna get a case study.

So there's it's it's it's a big domino. I don't know if it's the big domino, but it's a pretty bloody big domino that takes a lot of a lot of things. And the team can get behind it because it it's quite exciting to them. And I just want to back it up a little bit there, because I think this is worth touching on. Um I said the word because like it's important to uh for the team to know why this is important and not just be like, you're gonna do 10 case studies and get that done by the end of the month. Like that's that's not very exciting. Like the team don't get motivated, they don't get particularly excited about that. They might do it because it's a task, and I told you so, so get it done, maybe. But um what's that book? Uh Influence by Robert Cialdini, I think. Uh-huh. Robert Cialdini, yeah. Yeah. One of the one of the five principles or seven or however many that were in there. It talks about people being much more likely to do something when they when they know why. And it this goes a little bit further, or it's a little bit more of a practical approach to the start with why from Simon Sinek. But they did they did a study, which is which is wild. It was like something along the lines of going to uh there was like a queue at a photocopier, and for people to cut into the queue, if they said, Oh, I need to jump in front of you because blah blah blah, because I've I've got something urgent, my my nan's gonna pass away and I need to get this copied. And people like, oh my god, yeah, of course. But they they they started with something quite impactful, but then they went down to something that was just not impactful at all. It it was just it just needed something. So they changed it to like, oh, I need a cut in front of you because I need to photocopy this. And people like, oh of course. It's like, well, that's what we're all there for, right? Like, what are you talking about? So it was just any why. It wasn't even like a particular powerful particularly powerful why. It was just a why, like a reason. So if you just say because and then something, like, you know, make it compelling, but don't worry too much about having this grandiose vision that gets everyone excited. Just because we have to. Like, because I told you so. Well, ideally don't do that one.

Well, that's right. I mean, so the I so so you can are the three words I use all the time, which is you know the same as because. It's like, you know, uh, we'll help you do this so you can. And so and one of the and I've learned this as well, is like the so you can doesn't even have to be that impactful. It's like we'll help you, you know, we'll we'll help you with your finances so you can have clarity about your finances.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Wow.

Yeah, I know. Well, what else was it gonna do? Like that's right. Yeah. That is that example. It's like I need to jump in here because I need a photocopy of this paper. Sure, mate, no worries. But if they just said I I need to I need to I need to be in front of you, it's like, really? Why? What for? Yeah, so this question people ask, why? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you go get me a beer? Why? Just because my legs are sore. Okay, mate, no worries. Yeah, exactly. Because I've had too much a drink, I can't stand up. Okay, no worries. Yeah, that's at it. Because and so this is in terms of like incentivizing the team, uh, you know, we want to get these case studies because we do good work and we want to share it so that we can do more good work so that you guys can have more fun doing more good work, right? Yeah.

Exactly. That's pretty much exactly right. And sometimes I feel like I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel with like, oh, would they care? I don't know. But I think sometimes it's just like, just give it a crack and see what see what works. And if they jump to it and they're quite excited about it and they get it done, that's that's a good sign.

Sometimes I remember coming back from uh San Diego with you and Eva, and we'd I tell this story all the time. We'd had this amazing event at Mavcon. We closed eight new Mavericks, everyone was on fire, everyone was high-fiving. We also had the worst quarter that we'd had in a long time, which you guys didn't know. And I mentioned that when we got back from San Diego, I think it was in February, the world was going into lockdown in March. I mentioned, you know, we've had a fucking horrible quarter. And and you we were in the office, I think just before we left, revolver actually, before we left the office, um, and you and Eva were I was like, what's what's going on? And and you explained it to me. You said we feel like we've been playing basketball, shooting three pointers all game, and like just playing the best game ever. And five seconds before the the final bell goes, you've pulled the curtains back on the scoreboard, and we've realized the the opposition so far in front, we have no chance of winning. But we've been so it's really deflating that that that's the case because we feel like we've done a great job out at Mavcom and we've lost, and we should have known in advance. And I've always I've taken that on board and done changed nothing in the business. No, I've taken I've taken that on board. And it was a real lesson for me was to be more transparent. But I think but the reverse I think can work, right? If you and I'm gonna use Max, our producer, as an example, I hope he doesn't mind me telling the story about uh Toy Story, the Toy Story toys and his his daughter. Can I tell the story? Great. So this is a great example of uh of leading indicators and lagging indicators, but and this the element of surprise, right? So Max and his wife have a daughter, uh uh Polly, but from a very early age, Max starts buying Polly the toys that are in the Toy Story film, just one at a time, you know, buys you know, Slinky, buys Mr. Potato Head, buys Woody, but Polly, the only toys that she has are the toys from the Toy Story movie. Right? And his plan is when she's uh three or four, he's gonna sit down and watch Toy Story with her, and she'll realise that all of her toys are in a movie. Not uh she has all the toys from the movie, but there's a movie about all of her toys, right? So genius. I mean, weird, and I'm convinced. Totally weird, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, playing chess. Also totally awesome, right? Totally awesome. Yeah, that's right. So it happened recently that um it was like a fucking stupid hot day, you couldn't leave the house in Melbourne, it was like 800 degrees, and everyone stayed inside, and they're like, they watch Toy Story. Max has got footage of Polly running around the room with her toys, looking at the screen, going, you know, like like she's two and a half now or something, going, what the fuck's going on? Like all my toys, this is a movie about all my toys, right? So the point the point here with the if you give your team the case study leading indicator, and they get there, and it drives enough revenue that you reach a target, and then surprise as a as a reward, we're all going out 10-pin bowling, we're gonna take you all out for a fancy dinner, which you never knew was happening, because we hit our targets, because you guys helped us get the case studies, and we knew that that would help us hit the target. So it's the reverse of what I did to you, which was keeping you in the dark and feeding you on bullshit, and you had no idea how to win. Well, guess what? Not only have you guys won, but the company has won. And so, surprise, there's now this kind of surprise, the surprise lagging indicator is we all go to Thailand for a team retreat or whatever the thing is, right? We all get Amazon vouchers or whatever. So, anyway, that was just something that kind of pieced together while while I was thinking about the element of surprise that you know, because as a marketer, and let's be clear, as a CEO, you're constantly marketing your own company to your team. Right. And so as a marketer, you always want to have a surprise bonus up your sleeve, right? Here's one I didn't announce that you didn't even know you were getting. Oh wow, you're a nice guy, aren't you?

That's it. Exactly. Yeah, that that's gold. Yep. Um, you definitely want to be sharing in the rewards. Uh a little addition to that, and something we've been working on, is like, do you reward for the outcome, or is the outcome the completion of those leading indicators? And you reward because the leading indicators. So just with the um the case study example, do you reward okay? We actually got all 10 done and we finished March and you got them done. That's amazing. Here's the reward, but like our bank accounts weigh down, but we just don't need to mention that because that's not they're not connected. That that's gonna happen later. So if I think about like you know, fitness as an example or something, uh something well, I mean, ask me about the marathon training that I'm doing at the moment because I'm telling everyone about it. Sorry about the marathon training you're doing at the moment. So I'm glad you brought that up. So I'm to keep myself motivated, rewarding myself for completing the runs, like the plan is intense, and actually just sticking to the plan is is freaking hard. There's so many things I've got to adjust, and just the the daily, like I I run a lot, but the daily, like, I don't feel like it today is like, oh my god, again today? Come on. So giving myself like an immediate reward for completing the leading activity of just doing the plan because I know when it comes time to be on the mountain and in serious pain, I'll be like, I stuck to the plan, thank God, because I'm in 50% less pain than I would have been. There's a beer at the end, I'm looking forward to that. But I want I want to celebrate my leading indicator wins as well. I've watched you run around once.

That's right. Finished at the MCG, right? Yeah, yeah. In the stands watching you get over the finish line. You bloody. That was it. Uh so by the way, just a little uh uh sidebar here, there's a beer called Zero Beer. Uh Zero Beer, just look up Zero Beer. It's a beer, no alcohol beer full of hydrolyte. Uh it's kind of like hydrolyte, but it tastes like pale ale. All the marathon drinkers drink it at the end of a marathon for recovery.

All right.

No alcohol that tastes like pale ale. Does it new podcast sponsor? No, I'm a little bit. I've discovered or I've got some in the fridge. I love it. I don't know, marathons, but occasionally I like to drink a beer without the alcohol, and uh zero beer is the best no alcohol beer I've found. If you're listening, zero beer, you should sponsor the podcast. Um so there you go. Zero beer right now. Who makes that? I'm keen. I'm keen. Uh it's just uh it's just actually called I think it's just like uh uh are you googling sportsbeer.com.au, it's called Zero Plus. Zero Plus Sportsbeer.com.au. There you go. Free ad sportsbeer. Sportsbeer.com.au Zero Plus Australian Paleo. It's really bloody good. Now, here's a concept. What if the reward for the leading indicator is not living in the hell of staring blankly at the lagging indicator and feeling powerless? Yeah, nice. What if that what if that is the reward? Like the the dopamine hit of feeling like you've done something constructive towards the outcome. What if that was enough?

Yeah, that could be the reward itself. If you're trying to self-motivate, I think that's awesome. If you're trying to team motivate, that would be something to take into consideration. But I'd I'd want another carrot. Yeah. Yeah in some way. But I think, yeah, I think like when it in the example you were talking about a while ago, with uh, you know, refreshing the screen and looking at your bank account, being like, there's absolutely nothing I can do here, and Amy helping you out and be like, There probably is. What is it? Like, how can you just complete today knowing that you've done something? You're not going to magically change the name of this, but knowing like what's in your control, what's out of your control, what is in your control today is taking some kind of action. And the reward you get from that is immediate. And that dopamine of like, I felt like I was out of control, I felt like I couldn't do anything, but I did anyway. That's a reward in itself, which will pay off again later on as a lagging indicator.

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's such a mind, it's such a mind game.

It's such a knowing how to work with yourself is like one of the most important things.

You know what, you know, the sports people I admire the most are tennis players, right? Tennis players who play these epic five-set or three-set games in ridiculous heat and they're playing for a grand slam, right? And it's such a mindful exercise because they're like they want to win the Grand Slam, but winning the Grand Slam is a lagging indicator that is driven, is the result of every point they play in that five-set game, and all the five-set games leading up during the heats and the quarterfinals and the semifinals, right? And they have to stay present in the moment in every single point to win. The funny thing is with tennis, is you don't need to win more points than your opponent. You just need to win more games than your opponent. You can actually lose on points in tennis, but win the match, right? Like if, for example, uh if uh your uh if if you beat your opponent, you know, 40-30 and then win the game, or you go to juice and you advantage and that's how you win your game, but your opponent beats you with straight serves and just aces you all the time and beats you 40 love, right? Well, guess what? Your opponent's actually gonna win more points than you, but you're gonna win more games, right? Anyway, fun fact there about tennis if you're interested. Now, if you're in a moment in tennis and there's so much on the line, and you think about the fact that you just lost the previous point and that you're two championship points away from winning the Australian Open in front of however many thousand people, how much is that gonna mess with your head? Like, had he not focused on the lagging indicator there and just a present to play the fucking backhand to get it over the net and get it in the back of the court, you know, one of my best mates, he he winds down by watching Roger Federer videos on YouTube. He's like, the guy's just a master. I just watch Roger Federer play tennis on YouTube for the rest of my life. Like, I'm just in awe at the sportsmanship. How do you get that? How do you get those voices out of your head and stay present to do the work on the leading indicators? I talk to agencies all the time, and you know, like, oh, we need more leads. What have you done in the last seven days to start more conversations with people? Nothing. Well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to help you. I mean, what do you what do you what do you expect? Yeah, exactly.

You're exactly where that activity has brought you. Looking at the result. Yeah, Roger Federer, it's uh like he has a video actually talking about exactly this. That he like focusing on one point at a time, it doesn't matter if you just had the best serve ever. It doesn't matter if you just had the worst serve ever. Being this point is this point, this next hit is this next hit, and being in that zone. So whether up or down, trying to stay just in that moment, in that point, like that is a master mindset skill. Oh my god. Like sportsmanship, amazing, athletic ability, amazing, but over the control over your mind. I think it's a I think it's a habit. It's amazing practice over and over again of being in that zone. But I think that's that's the same mentality you can bring to your agency and to your business.

Yeah, because because being as a you know, tennis, the thing I like about tennis, well, the thing I admire about tennis players is they don't have a team. I mean, they have the coaches in the coaches' box, but they don't have it, there's no team camaraderie, right? Team sports, football, soccer, rugby, cricket, whatever. You've got teammates there that can kind of basketball, they can kind of you know egg you on. Tennis is golf, it's all you, right? Um, same with being the CEO of a large agency or being a freelancer. You're working on your own, you second guess yourself. If if you've got a large team, but you are the CEO, it's very lonely at the top because you don't want to share everything with the team because you want to keep team morale up, right? You want to keep the culture good. You bear the responsibility, you shoulder a lot more responsibility than anyone else. So it's a very lonely place to be. And uh I think it takes a certain mental fortitude to be able to navigate your way through that. So anyway. Hey dude, this has been fun. Is there anything anything on your list that we should have spoken about that we didn't? No.

No, this is like keeping the conversation open and flowing into examples that are the relevant that we're using, that agencies and business owners can benefit from. Great. Awesome. I think we've touched the key concepts, but and like wrapping up, it's like the the lagging indicators tell you where you've been, the leading indicators show you where you're going. And if you only focus on revenue or website traffic or customer retention, like you're just playing catch up. And if you're just refreshing your bank account and not taking any action, then it's a recipe for feeling like crap. So don't do that. Uh ideally, focus on the activities, the five follow-ups. Like, what is that for you? Think about your business, think about your agency. What are those leading indicators for you? Now you can only control you. I think it starts with you and then it bleeds into the team. It is telling the team to do this when you're not, I think is a bit of a cop-out. It does need to happen, but it starts with you, so you know what it's like to take these activities. All of us in our agencies, in our businesses, we've got a particular role. We're responsible for some kind of number, but and we're responsible for the activities that move us towards that. So pick one thing, what is that for you? Focus on that daily action, on that leading indicator, and you'll see the results. The lagging indicator will come.

Yeah. And um my final thought: whatever you do, don't compare yourself to other people's lagging indicators. Because all you see online of all the people, you know, uh sharing their highlights, real, the best parts of their life on social media, all you see is the lagging indicator. Right? When someone says, Oh, you know, I made $8 million in four seconds by, you know, sitting in these and I didn't do any work, right? You don't no one no one shares the leading indicators that they've gone through, the leading activities that they've undertaken to produce that. They just show the lagging indicators. I have have a look at my Stripe account, how good am I? Blah, blah, blah. Right. Um, so don't compare yourself to anyone else's lagging indicators. Just focus on improving your activity by 1% every day. Just be better than yesterday, right? And in six months' time, you'll be having a different experience on the planet, and your lagging indicators will look very different. Uh dude, thank you so much for joining the agency our podcast. Appreciate you being here. Looking forward to doing this again. Uh where can people where can people reach out and get in touch with us?

Link LinkedIn would be the best spot, Simon Kelly. Um, so there's a few Simon Kelly's in Melbourne. So Simon Kelly SGD. Yeah, there's some like politician. Uh and sgd.com.au. We have a weekly newsletter that goes out that I typically write or have some involvement in writing, so you can get uh some of my insights around websites and digital marketing and business through Marketing Monday. Uh we have a monthly webinar, you can sign up for that. So, yeah, LinkedIn and SGD.com.au.

Cool. Love it. Thanks for joining us, and thanks everyone for listening to the Agency Out Podcast. Subscribe, like, share, do all that kind of stuff where you normally do it. And uh we'll see you next week on the Agency Out. Thanks for listening to the Agency Out Podcast, and a massive thanks to Simon for joining us. If you are feeling overwhelmed and unsure of your next move, I highly recommend visiting gameplan.identymaver.com. You'll get a personalized game plan title to help grow your identity, giving you a clear roadmap for exactly what to do next. Gameplan.identymaprics.com. And if you'd like expert audience in implementing it, go for that thing. We'd love to help you with what we do. Okay, folks, remember to subscribe and please share this with anyone you think might need to hear it. I'm Cordane, and remember, xodophobia is the fear of fear.